Re: [GNU-linux-libre] [PATCH] gnu: Add ungoogled-chromium.

[bill-auger]

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:33:06 +0100 Ricardo wrote:
> I don’t feel motivated to apologize to the people involved in PureOS
> because I wasn’t around when they were pressured / convinced to drop
> Chromium.

no, but you could have been around - you also could have argued for
pureos on their side of the debate, and perhaps won favor for chromium
at that time; so that none of us would need to be discussing it today,
nor ever again - but unfortunately, it is true, you did not do that -
so here we are today, raking this ugly old thing out of the mud once
again


On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:33:06 +0100 Ricardo wrote:
> In day to day Guix activities, we don’t ask developers of other
> distros that also happen to subscribe to the FSDG to reach consensus
> before making project decisions.  

of course every distro should have complete autonomy, especially for
decisions that only pertain to that one distro - i am only considering
the most fundamental decisions that obviously affect all distros
equally, and reflect upon the integrity of the FSDG itself, such as
which software is FSDG-free and which are not (and clarifying why or
why not, and ideally, offering specific guidance for acceptably
liberating the most common or troublesome ones) - if we can not all
agree on that single most central concern to the FSDG, then what
exactly is the value of the FSDG anyways?


On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:33:06 +0100 Ricardo wrote:
> You are suggesting that FSDG
> distros form a community beyond the sense that they abide by the same
> guidelines.  I don’t think that’s reflecting reality.  It’s another
> thing to discuss if this should be so.

yes - awesome!! - that is exactly what i have been proposing and
working toward for a long time - in this case, not as just "another
thing to discuss"; but it is *the* sole reason that i raised this issue
with guix at this time (last september actually[1])

i have repeated it over and over again, that i couldnt care less about
the chromium program, specifically - i want to discuss only and exactly
this: enticing all FSDG distros to collaborate toward the achievement
of common goals and solutions to common problems; as to avoid both
redundant efforts and the presenting of conflicting philosophies to
users, regarding the nature and essence of "free software" - the
chromium program is not itself a fundamental problem, but one, albeit
notorious, example of a common problem that affects all FSDG distros,
and has been addressed by the group for the purpose of presenting a
uniform message regarding it's FSDG status

it would be a beautiful thing to have vigorous cross-distro
collaboration as a focal point of the FSDG itself, very much in the
collaborative spirit of GNU; and i think that most of the distros are
already on board with that idea as a worthwhile plan, and have always
been participating on the FSDG mailing list under that presumption -
last year's re-structuring of the incoming distros community evaluation
process was a concrete step in that direction

"reality" is only what we make of it - if you see the FSDG as nothing
more than a trophy or badge that you earned once upon a time, a
milestone that need not be any concerned ever more after, then that
is the reality you will have - the FSF does not want to mandate that
anyone participate in the on-going group discussions; but it is a very
good idea to show that the FSDG distros behave as a community of
siblings by, at the very least, presenting a uniform stance on shared
freedom issues


On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:33:06 +0100 Ricardo wrote:
> I see no violation of the FSDG here.

that is not news, Ricardo - no one sees any obvious licensing violation
of the FSDG; not today, nor a year ago, nor five years ago - if there
were any known, they could have (and probably would have) been
addressed long ago, and maybe we would not be discussing this now - the
only clear FSDG problem today is the new one that guix is making for all
other distros that are trying to be compliant with the FSDG as it is
written, by intentionally doing something that is explicitly against
the written recommendation - the "as it is written" part is perhaps
dubious; but it is the keystone of a long-standing FSDG anomaly, and
guix is in a very good position to help resolve that once and for all,
for the benefit of all

whether anyone likes it or not, adding chromium into any FSDG distro
today, is in direct conflict with that pesky: "what is written" - the
solution is almost certainly, that it needs to be re-written; but there
is not yet anything to over-write it with - "i see no problem" is
clearly not sufficient - we all know it has FSDG problems; and the
current wording will remain until someone who cares about chromium
offers a convincing liberation procedure to replace it as the FSDG
recommendation

we are asking for your help with this, for the benefit of all FSDG
distros and their users, present and future, because it is only guix
that claims to have any new information about chromium, and guix is
probably the only distro that wants this program to be considered as
FSDG-free badly enough to do anything about it; but all we have seen so
far, are sentiments plainly discounting the validity of the request
like: "i dont see any problem", "i dont feel compelled to address
this", and "sorry, i dont remember how i did it" - not only is that
indifference leaving the others to remain in this quagmire that we have
been in for years; but pushing this through while knowing that this
conflict exists, is making it more uncomfortable than it needs to be
going forward, especially if no one from guix plans to help resolve the
conflict in a timely manor

whether or not guix considers itself to be part of the larger
FSDG community, you should realize that we do exist as such, and that
this particular action by guix is forcing a wedge into a small, but
visible crack in the foundation of FSDG itself; which has negative
repercussion on those who would be your allies, and creates a strong
point of contention for any new distro that comes along


[1]: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2018-09/msg00264.html