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Re: LYNX-DEV problem page


From: Laura Eaves
Subject: Re: LYNX-DEV problem page
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:20:23 -0400 (EDT)

> From: John <address@hidden>
> Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:19:01 -0400 (EDT)
>...
> On Thu, 8 May 1997, Laura Eaves wrote: ... in part ...
> > Yesterday there were some problems with http://www.msnbc.com/
> >
> > Since this page changes every day, the same problems
> > aren't there today, but i had downloaded yesterday's page
> > and put it in http://www.intac.com/~leaves/msnbc.html
> 
> OK ... I have not made any comments in this group recently,
> but I can't resist this one.  One of the main reasons to use
> a good browser such as lynx is to avoid the neccesity to
> 'download' stuff aka try to emulate nut$srew and
> MicroWhatever, so I don't unnerstand what the problem is
> here.  Does msnbc have a bad page for text users? ... Sure
> they do.  Are they aware of it?  Well sorta kinda, but the
> mailto URL to report problems goes to the page designer so
> of course they just think everything is peachy keen (now
> that's probably not gonna help because I'm on a box named
> 'peach' right now ... whatever) where wuz we ... Oh yes ...
> so they deny that they have a problem, but the solution is
> NOT to try to fix lynx or make bugg fixes so that lnyx can
> emulate others' bad code, nor to try to make lynx attempt to
> read it, or to workaround it, but just be patient and let
> them figure out how to put up text friendly pages if they
> wish, and if not, don't visit them.  That's my 1895 cents
> worth (plus tax) ... BYE

Ok, since you think this is worth flaming about, i'll give you my 2 cents.
First, this site is not particularly bad for text users.  It doens't
have that many graphics, and the images mostly all have alt strings.  The
problems are misplaced HTML elements in the text, which is common across
all websites.
Second, I usually always report HTML problems to web site owners, if they
specify one.  Sometimes they respond and sometimes they don't -- but usually
they don't, or it takes them a long time.
Third, I believe a browser is only "good" if it CAN make sense of common errors
or unexpected or unimplemented constructs.
I worked on compilers and programming tools for many years.  A parser in a GOOD
compiler is expected to make sense out of what the user does wrong in order to
give useful error messages.  A browser has to present something reasonable to
users who know nothing about HTML.  It doesn't jsut validate the code.
I don't understand the downright hostility toward making lynx user-friendly,
just because it means parsing a superset of HTML instead of trying to strictly
enforce the standard.  (Like English, standards change with common usage.)

> > Also, links 2 and 3 are USEMAPS.  With the old parser,
> > they come out [LINK]-[USEMAP], with the new parser they
> > come out [USEMAP] as the preceeding anchor is closed.  (In
> > this case, it looks like the new parser is right.)
> 
> Well ... that may have more to do with your attempt to 'fix'
> it than with their code ... hmmmm ...

And what's wrong with that?

> > Finally, this page, and other pages at this site, are
> > sprinkled with &#145; and &#146; strings.  Shouldn't these
> > be translated into something else?  They come out
> > literally in the rendered page.
> 
> Again, yes they have big problems with their html code, but
> mayhaps just report it to them, rather than trying to make a
> workaround for lynx because IMHO that ony makes things
> worse, and screws up (your viewing of) other sites which are
> correctly coded

Putting error recovery into lynx doesn't affect viewing of pages with
legal html.

As for the problem with the &#146;'s scattered around the page,
this was as much a question as a bug report.  I'm not familiar with
how & values are supposed to be handled -- therefore I wasn't
sure if this was a bug in lynx or another example of bad html on their page.
In case it was a lynx bug, I passed it along.

> That's it ... I'm done preaching ... BYE

Good.
--le

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