Re: lynx-dev New <BR> collapsing patch

[Philip Webb]

980817 Nelson Henry Eric came to everyone's rescue (again): 
> I would favor having the "tag-soup" way of thinking as the default,
> i.e. not collapsing multiple BRs as the default,
> just as I supported Fote's parsing routines as the default.
> The reason being that users who don't understand the HTML are going
> to clamor "bug", while those who do, or are die-hard purists,
> will also know how to compile, configure or toggle Lynx for their needs.
> 
> I believe one of the great strengths of Lynx is
> that it has to a large degree a respect for acknowledged standards.
> we should keep both "follows standards" & "follows real world convention"
> ways of handling this problem markup, BR.
> 
> The problem I have with the patch that was submitted is
> that it would remove the "follows standards" option.
> This to me is unacceptable.  Also, for one problem tag,
> the overhead of adding a three-way toggle seems unreasonable.
> IMHO, what needs to be tweaked is the "follows real world convention"
> In any change made to Lynx, a careful evaluation of the benefit
> of the new code versus the overhead in terms of image size,
> no matter how small, should be made.
>
>> but if you believe more than a very tiny minority of document authors
>> have the slightest knowledge of or interest in such things,
>> you simply don't live in the real world:
> If what you say is true, then the Internet is in a sad state of affairs.
> I would hope that document authors have pride in what they present.
> When they don't, I begin to question the value of the content itself.

i find that it is commonly true, but from lack of pride
-- many Lynx-challenged WWW authors are very proud of their stuff -- ,
rather from lack of time or education or both:
for a good example, see Unanswered Query (me, today).
 
>> the solution is simple: a run-time configurable choice (needs programming)
>> or at least changing the  lynx.cfg  default to match real-life out there.
> No problem with this whatsoever.  What you may find, however,
> is that trying to "match real-life out there" may not be so simple.
> When that is found to be the case, argue over how *that* code
> can best match the majority of the people's ways of thinking.
> Don't fool with code that is designed to follow a recognized standard.
 
i completely agree that the 2nd choice should be `collapse all' for purists;
`collapse none' should be 3rd (few, if anyone, wants that);
`collapse non-pairs' should be default to help the huddled masses.

first, thanks to Henry; second, i make no apology for pursuing this thread.
there are  2  quite basic issues involved:
(1) can we always rely on the HTML specs to be clear & consistent?
(2) should we follow the specs by default or try to deal with real life?
there is plenty of room for debate on both of these,
the one vital thing being to try to make progress (slowly, of course):
i have tried to develop one side of the argument without repetition.

sorry if i misread AG, who agrees with NHE, but refuses to take sides;
in outline, he said (Archive 980812 2059):
> I agree with Philip that Lynx should not follow the consensus documents
> slavishly, but seek common sense answers.
> There is no ideal choice, here.  Just cutting one's losses.
> Fote's implementation complies with but is not dictated by
> the spirit of HTML 4, ie it's up to us to decide what makes sense.

DH spoke up for convenient behaviour by Lynx here as elsewhere (already);
DC wants a run-time choice, which would make the default unimportant;
LV want current behaviour & BS has added his voice (we're not voting),
but i note LV appears to offer conditional support:

> If there are felt to be inconsistencies in the specs,
> then I am in favor of the discoverer of those inconsistencies
> changing the HTML specifications to clarify,
> while the code writing folk do the best they can
> to accomodate some sort of consistent behavior in lynx.

so the search for consensus seems to be:

  for keeping current behaviour as default: DE, LV, MW, BS (4);
  for not collapsing <BR><BR> by default: DH, JM, DW, NHE, DC, PW (6);
  abstaining: AG ; absent: lots'n'lots with other things to do ...

i'm content to leave it there,
but the basic questions are going to come up again (and again) ...
  
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