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Re: Bug-gnubg Digest, Vol 202, Issue 16
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From: |
Terje Pedersen |
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Subject: |
Re: Bug-gnubg Digest, Vol 202, Issue 16 |
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Date: |
Wed, 29 Jan 2020 19:49:26 +0100 |
Hi!
Yes there is a huge amount of action tags (hit or not, give up anchor
or not, and so on) and a lot of position tags (you have a 20 point
anchor, you have a 4 point prime, and so on).
Tags are automatically set on a position upon importing a match (or
after the match on Heroes).
How intelligent it is I don't know but I think it is pretty cool.
You can click through the about link I sent in previous email for
examples: https://www.backgammonstudio.com/about/
Best regards,
TP
On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 7:05 PM Wayne Joseph <address@hidden> wrote:
>
> Hi Terje,
>
> >> (130 different action tags)
>
> Do any of your products intelligently and automatically tag the type of
> positional (or cube action) problems?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wayne
>
> -- Sent from my Android phone
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020, 5:00 pm , <address@hidden> wrote:
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: current development (Terje Pedersen)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:59:30 +0100
>> From: Terje Pedersen <address@hidden>
>> To: pviau <address@hidden>
>> Cc: Sarah Payne <address@hidden>, Mary Hickey
>> <address@hidden>, "address@hidden" <address@hidden>,
>> "Timothy Y. Chow" <address@hidden>, Michael Petch
>> <address@hidden>, Chris Yep <address@hidden>, Øystein
>> Schønning-Johansen <address@hidden>
>> Subject: Re: current development
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAJGAYCw33TVbtW1WGU9dDOaLggsUczWf7ZJ_rU2wxUxTL=address@hidden>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> Backgammon Studio has an option for a private database where you can
>> add your own matches which you can grow over time and do all kinds of
>> things with. This server requires XG to analyze matches before you can
>> upload them. Search through all positions from all your matches where
>> you made a -0.100 or bigger 'hit or not' error (130 different action
>> tags) in combination with a myriad of other search options. I made
>> https://www.backgammonstudio.com/about/ some time ago showing some of
>> what the server can do.
>>
>> Heroes does away with this and automatically adds your errors to your
>> private database after the match is over. It uses gnu bg analysed
>> moves. For most players I think gnu bg is more than strong enough to
>> point out your errors and help you improve your game.
>>
>> Yes offline would be sweet but I don't think it will work for any
>> reasonable revenue generation (I quit my day job some years ago).
>>
>> The future is online! :-)
>>
>> Best regards,
>> TP
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 11:31 AM pviau <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >
>> > Just 2 more cents: Backgammon Studio is great, but it’s not just the quizz
>> > aspect I was advocating as a feature for a future “attractive gnubg”, it’s
>> > having your own position database to evolve and study. This apparently is
>> > not possible in Studio, although I may have missed it.
>> >
>> > Sure rehearsing generic databases (say openings and replies) is great, but
>> > maintaining and studying your own set of reference positions is invaluable.
>> >
>> > And I’ll say again: I wish we could rehearse without any internet
>> > connection (plane ride, or whatever reason for not being online).
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Pierre
>> > _____
>> >
>> > On 29 Jan 2020, at 10:28, Sarah Payne <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Joseph. Before responding to your last let me repeat that I don’t have
>> > anything like the skill or experience necessary to contribute real
>> > expertise here, only enthusiasm for the game & a great deal of admiration
>> > for the gnubg project, so please make allowances for that. But re your
>> > query about analysis of gnu with xg: could this be the next step for
>> > planning an update / new release?
>> >
>> > For sure, I would expect gnu still to have some playing strengths against
>> > xg. That’s what is so impressive: how it’s still as strong as it is with
>> > no new recent versions. Let’s not forget we’re only comparing it to what’s
>> > currently considered to be the world’s best.
>> >
>> > Intuitively? I think gnu still has something xg doesn’t, ‘a different
>> > animal’ is not a criticism per se. But as you point out, intuition is
>> > nothing. Also it doesn’t seem necessary to wait another year for the new
>> > version of xg. This kind of comparative / competitive development will
>> > always be ongoing / open-ended.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Joseph Heled <address@hidden>
>> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 9:23:36 PM
>> > To: Mary Hickey <address@hidden>
>> > Cc: Sarah Payne <address@hidden>; pviau <address@hidden>; Timothy Y. Chow
>> > <address@hidden>; Michael Petch <address@hidden>; Øystein
>> > Schønning-Johansen <address@hidden>; Chris Yep <address@hidden>
>> > Subject: Re: current development
>> >
>> > Sounds like a good idea, but why bother with BOTS? just play against the
>> > current GNU version and analyze with XG. Perhaps this has already been
>> > done and just needs publicizing?
>> >
>> > -Joseph
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 10:04, Mary Hickey <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Joseph,
>> >
>> > I was referring more to the interface than the playing strength, but you
>> > are right that the general perception is that XG is the gold standard
>> > regarding playing as well as onscreen viewing and printing. Maybe that
>> > perception needs to be addressed, though since a new version of XG is
>> > rumored to be coming out soon, it might be better to wait and compare GNU
>> > to that instead.
>> >
>> > One way to produce some data, which isn't exactly the same as evidence, is
>> > have a bunch of us play vs. whatever bot is considered to be the best
>> > representation of GNU at the various servers, then chuck the matches
>> > through XG at a comparable level, say 3-ply rather than world class. Has
>> > this already been done? And if this idea makes any sense, which bot at
>> > FIBS and also at Backgammon Studio best represents the current GNU? And
>> > what level of XG analysis is to be considered comparable?
>> >
>> > After we find where the bots differ, we can roll the positions out and see
>> > which gets the nod. I'd trust either bot to roll them out well on good
>> > settings.
>> >
>> > I like this method because it's not difficult either to understand or to
>> > do. It won't detect all the flaws in either program, because rarer
>> > positions aren't as likely to be seen even in a large number of matches
>> > (...duh...that's why they're rare LOL) but we might learn something anyway.
>> >
>> > Mary
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Joseph Heled <address@hidden>
>> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 3:24 PM
>> > To: Mary Hickey <address@hidden>
>> > Cc: Sarah Payne <address@hidden>; pviau <address@hidden>; Timothy Y. Chow
>> > <address@hidden>; Michael Petch <address@hidden>; Øystein
>> > Schønning-Johansen <address@hidden>
>> > Subject: Re: current development
>> >
>> > I am very happy to see (reasonably priced) for-pay services for BG
>> > players. It means the game is still alive, which is far more important
>> > than any one BOT, free or not.
>> >
>> > But perceptions vs. reality is one of the issues we are talking about,
>> > right? would you be able to put something, based on your experience, that
>> > will show that XG and GNU-BG are not that different in terms of playing
>> > strength, or "prove us wrong" by showing why XG is superior?
>> >
>> > -Joseph
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 08:19, Mary Hickey <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Joseph,
>> >
>> > It doesn't have to be the end, but from the posts I'm reading, it appears
>> > many programming person-hours will need to be directed just toward
>> > catching up with XG and other tools now available elsewhere. For example,
>> > Pierre talks about quizzes, but you can take quizzes all day and night at
>> > backgammonstudio.com, play vs. other people, yak at the forum and also
>> > study an extensive library of matches for $24 a year.
>> >
>> > But since GNU is the bot that follows you in consultation matches there,
>> > and also is the engine running the FIBS-bots if memory serves, it has some
>> > immortality, don't you think?
>> >
>> > Mary
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Joseph Heled <address@hidden>
>> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 2:03 PM
>> > To: Mary Hickey <address@hidden>
>> > Cc: Sarah Payne <address@hidden>; pviau <address@hidden>; Timothy Y. Chow
>> > <address@hidden>; Michael Petch <address@hidden>; address@hidden
>> > <address@hidden>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen <address@hidden>
>> > Subject: Re: current development
>> >
>> > Nice obituary, Mary :)
>> >
>> > -Joseph
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 at 12:38, Mary Hickey <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >
>> > To the entire GNU-bg Community,
>> >
>> > I remain a GNU fan even though I'm One of Those People who stopped using
>> > it once XG established itself as the go-to backgammon bot. And having read
>> > this email exchange, I'm shouting out a huge "THANK YOU!" to this
>> > community for its contribution to the game, and its example of
>> > co-operation, trust and mutual respect among programmers from all over the
>> > world.
>> >
>> > I'm not a coder, but remember helping test the GNU-bots at FIBS and
>> > providing feedback regarding their practical play on FIBS to the
>> > developers. I appreciate the GNU community's generosity in permitting
>> > GNU-engined bots to play on any servers that want them.
>> >
>> > Wherever this project goes from here, the co-operation and always
>> > respectful communications among the members of this community shine
>> > brightly in a world that needs more of those qualities.
>> >
>> > Sincerely yours,
>> >
>> > Mary Hickey
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Bug-gnubg <bug-gnubg-bounces+thehick64=address@hidden> on behalf of
>> > Sarah Payne <address@hidden>
>> > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:18 AM
>> > To: pviau <address@hidden>
>> > Cc: address@hidden <address@hidden>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen
>> > <address@hidden>
>> > Subject: RE: current development
>> >
>> > Hi Pviau, re position databases I’m guessing this is just the kind of
>> > feedback needed, particularly coming from someone familiar with xg’s
>> > potential. It would be a huge bonus to have a feature like this to launch
>> > a new version & get gnubg back on the radar of serious players.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > But I’d suggest just one new feature / usp of this kind (& err towards
>> > keeping it simple). Develop neural nets / cross platform compatibility
>> > then get a new version out there soon as, before people forget how good
>> > the project is.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Completely agree re offline functionality. Also re UI: flat, simple,
>> > clean. Very little required there.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: pviau <address@hidden>
>> > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 11:04:43 AM
>> > To: Sarah Payne <address@hidden>
>> > Cc: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <address@hidden>; address@hidden
>> > <address@hidden>
>> > Subject: Re: current development
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I’m an ex-avid-gnubg player, but ever since I found XG, I never looked
>> > back. And this is from a die-hard Mac user/evangelist, who actually only
>> > installed Parallels Desktop so that I could run XG on my Macs. Please
>> > don’t tell my friends.
>> >
>> > Neural nets are of course key to take gnubg seriously again, and lots of
>> > competent people will end up taking care of this, I sincerely hope. But I
>> > would like to suggest another angle to evolve gnubg.
>> >
>> > But first a comment on UI/looks. I also do not share the view that gnubg
>> > is much inferior to XG there. Heck, I consider XG’s UI is its only weak
>> > point. It feels like a 1990’s Windows app, because essentially its creator
>> > (who is a fantastic guy) never cared much to evolve his UI skills beyong
>> > what he learned :-)
>> >
>> > So if gnubg needs to improve its UI (which it does), from a visual point
>> > of view the starting point should be something like backgammongalaxy (the
>> > web site). Simple flat color schemes, as little visual noise as possible,
>> > everything geared towards efficiency for learning yet clean and elegant.
>> > And no, no 3D will ever help anybody learn to play better backgammon.
>> >
>> > Now for the other angle I mentioned above.
>> >
>> > What I am missing in the various competent apps around, is a trivial way
>> > to build position databases, and study them. So this is a function which
>> > would make an app stand out, at least for a while:
>> >
>> > - the database itself, with sections and filters etc
>> > - easy to feed from various 1-or-2-click methods (flag a position while
>> > playing, while replaying someone’s match, copy XGid or any other id from
>> > another app and paste into the db, why not even from a screenshot of the
>> > whole board...)
>> > - the possibility to batch-generate technical equity data on a position, a
>> > section, the whole db, using rollouts
>> > - the possibility to define quizz-based studies and score them (on a
>> > section, on any hand-picked list)
>> > - a history of quizz scores to show play quality evolution over time
>> >
>> > All of this can be done today, but it takes a combination of tools and a
>> > lot fiddling. This has to stop :-)
>> >
>> > Oh and finally: Android *AND* iOS have to be on the radar. Absolutely.
>> > Soon only dinosaurs will be carrying around a laptop everywhere they go. I
>> > was talking about myself there, but still even I may evolve one day...
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Pierre
>> >
>> > On 25 Jan 2020, at 11:15, Sarah Payne <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >
>> > Here’s where I’ve got to - hope some of it proves helpful.
>> >
>> > I contacted the USBGF and UKBGF asking for any feedback / interest and /
>> > or recommendations re generating fresh input from a new generation of
>> > coders (also posted similar messages out to a few C programming forums).
>> >
>> > Not much joy here I’m afraid. I think the main issue at USBGF & UKBGF (ie
>> > for professional or competitive players / club players or serious
>> > hobbyists) is how far gnu has fallen behind XG now (unlike Snowie in its
>> > day, XG is generally affordable, available for mobiles & a new version
>> > with enhanced neural nets, compatible with Mac as well as Windows for the
>> > first time, is due for release at the end of the year).
>> >
>> > But ‘free to all’ is still a significant USP for GNUBG especially among
>> > younger players (and in other parts of the world) & GNUBG is still cited
>> > up there as best of the rest on more general games forums. But as far as I
>> > can tell (in the UK at least) there are no clubs / tournaments / forums
>> > ringfenced for younger players so hard to know how to tap into this for
>> > feedback / enthusiasm / new coding talent.
>> >
>> > I also contacted Chris Bray, one of the UK’s leading writers and promoters
>> > of the game. He’s the one who filled me in on the latest re XG. In his
>> > opinion:
>> >
>> > ‘…gnubg always had creditable neural net engines but never had a friendly
>> > User Interface which held it back considerably. I always felt it was
>> > written by technical programmers with little commercial awareness of how
>> > people would use it in the real world.’
>> >
>> > I don’t share this view. I’m not a techie but I prefer the gnu layout /
>> > interface to XG’s. Having said that, I’m not a professional / competitive
>> > player either, which no doubt involves different priorities. Also I’ve
>> > been playing GNU for a long time & it probably took a few goes to get it
>> > set up the way I wanted (not sure that’s how big a deal that is, though).
>> >
>> > In Bray’s opinion, ‘for gnubg to reemerge as a viable alternative to XG it
>> > will need an enhanced user interface and well-integrated app version for
>> > apple & android tablets / phones, as well as upgraded neural nets.’
>> >
>> > In my opinion, a phone version would broaden appeal / access but the most
>> > critical issue is the neural nets. XG feels like a very different animal
>> > as an opponent - noticeably more opportunistic & aggressive, so some
>> > degree of congruence asap seems critical for gnubg to hold ground.
>> >
>> > A final note from Chris:
>> >
>> > ‘FYI on my ToDo list is to talk to DeepMind about whether they intend to
>> > create an AlphaZero Backgammon.’
>> >
>> > No update from him on this as yet. How about contacting them yourself to
>> > propose a gnubg / DeepMind collaboration?
>> >
>> > Alternatively (or also):
>> >
>> > In a subsequent email Chris mentioned ‘seeing an emerging group of
>> > highly-talented younger players, many of them Japanese.’
>> >
>> > How about a Japanese collaboration / appeal for new coders? Language is
>> > clearly a barrier to this, but would it be possible to find some bilingual
>> > volunteers via the main gnu project to act as go-between? I don’t know how
>> > global the main project is, but backgammon is huge in parts of the Middle
>> > East so appeals here / Africa / India (where English is also more widely
>> > spoken) could also prove fruitful.
>> >
>> > Finally, whilst I haven’t had any specific responses from UKBGF or USBGF
>> > to my general inquiries, it should be possible to put out a broadcast with
>> > either or both of these organisations (& via them to the local club
>> > networks) with specific announcements or requests for feedback eg for or
>> > from younger players / coders interested in collaboration. You may want to
>> > consider this. If it’s general player feedback you want, you probably need
>> > to frame some very specific questions. Oystein said: ‘First we need an
>> > idea, then we have to verify that idea, and then we have to set it into
>> > life, which might trigger a bigger VM or a cluster.’ As a non-techie I get
>> > the gist of this (and as a description of the work process find it
>> > intriguing!) but I’m in the dark as to what type of ideas you mean, or
>> > what kind of information you want.
>> >
>> > There we are, then: my progress to date. Still happy to help, for what
>> > it’s worth, and I would love to be kept updated on any progress your end.
>> >
>> > All best with that, & a Happy New Year to you all – thanks once again for
>> > all the fine work to date.
>> >
>> > Sarah
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <address@hidden>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 5:48:59 PM
>> > To: Sarah Payne <address@hidden>
>> > Subject: Re: current development
>> >
>> > Yes. Just give it some thought. If you post to the mailing list or to just
>> > me, you can decide yourself. I'm not the most active developer at the
>> > time, so maybe posting to the mailing list is a good idea.
>> >
>> > -Øystein
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 6:10 PM Sarah Payne <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >
>> > Ok I’ll give this some thought. Do I reply to you or reply all?
>> >
>> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <address@hidden>
>> > Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 10:08:34 PM
>> > To: Sarah Payne <address@hidden>
>> > Subject: Re: current development
>> >
>> > Hi, Sarah!
>> >
>> > Thanks for your gratitude. I think all involved developers are busy with
>> > other day time jobs, and GNU Backgammon is hence just a spare time project
>> > for us. We hence have what we need for a living through our daily jobs.
>> > However, as you see development has slowed down the later years.
>> >
>> > I think what we need in this project is:
>> > - Motivation
>> > - Enthusiasm
>> > - Cheering
>> >
>> > so, I think that you email started some sparks. You saw that! Maybe if we
>> > just continue to post some messages to this mailing list, maybe something
>> > will even happen. Keep posting suggestions and question and be positive
>> > and cheer up the life of the readers. That will probably be the best
>> > contribution back to the project.
>> >
>> > There might be occasion where some hard money can contribute and that
>> > might be when/if we start training something on big virtual servers, and
>> > these virtual servers can have some cost attached. But that is only
>> > guesswork from me. First we need an idea, then we have to verify that
>> > idea, and then we have to set it into life, which might trigger a bigger
>> > VM or a cluster. In that case we can discuss how to fund that. Sponsors or
>> > we chip in or we get voluntary gifts from backgammon enthusiast? Anyway --
>> > It's far ahead.
>> >
>> > Maybe fresh blood among the developers might help? Do you go to a local
>> > backgammon club?
>> > Are there any computer geeks and nerds in you club? (apart from you?). The
>> > developers in this projects are old nerds with gray hair or no hair at all
>> > (like me), who learned to develop software last millennium, and maybe some
>> > of the code can be improved if fresh blood was added. If you are playing
>> > in a club, your contribution could be to go over to the young (younger
>> > than me and the other guys in the development team) geek in the corner and
>> > ask him/her if he she has seen GNU Backgammon, or knows neural network, or
>> > like programming, and knows the C programming language... so on.... if
>> > you get a developer interested that can also be your contribution back. :-)
>> >
>> > That's how it goes. And thank you so much for the spark you started. It
>> > means a lot.
>> >
>> > Best rolls and regards
>> > -Øystein
>> >
>> > On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 6:36 PM Sarah Payne <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Oystein
>> >
>> > Unfortunately I’m not a coder but I’ve used this software so often for no
>> > charge I was wondering if it’s possible to give money sometimes to the
>> > backgammon project to help keep it going / up to date. I’m sure I can’t be
>> > the only person to feel this way. You should all be very proud of this
>> > programme which has remained competitive for so long even without much
>> > recent development. In my opinion, it’s still the most user friendly
>> > set-up as well - v flexible & intuitive.
>> >
>> > What are the biggest hurdles to keeping it competitive? Man hours,
>> > computer hours? Does the neural networking approach used up until this
>> > point need to evolve / become more resource hungry to keep up with
>> > something like Extreme Gammon for example?
>> >
>> > Forgive my ignorance in this area – I’m very interested but understand
>> > very little of this area. And if this is not appropriate conversation for
>> > these lists, no problem, just let me know.
>> >
>> > Thanks – and please, yes, feel encouraged to get going again! :)
>> >
>> > Sarah
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <address@hidden>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2019 5:01:50 PM
>> > To: Sarah Payne <address@hidden>
>> > Cc: address@hidden <address@hidden>
>> > Subject: Re: current development
>> >
>> > Hi Sarah!
>> >
>> > Thanks for taking contact. Good to hear that you like GNU Backgammon.
>> > Is it still under development? Hmmm... debatable. There has not been many
>> > major improvements the last few years.
>> >
>> > Take a look at the projects ChangeLog.
>> > http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/gnubg/gnubg/ChangeLog?revision=1.2654&view=markup
>> >
>> > As you see there isn't much happening.
>> >
>> > Of course you can contribute if you want. After all this project is Open
>> > Source an anyone can do whatever changes they want.
>> > Just post comments here on the mailing list, and it can shear up some of
>> > the sleeping developers.
>> >
>> > If you are a developer and want to contribute with code, we can of course
>> > provide you write access to the cvs repository. (Yes, it is as old that
>> > it's using cvs to do code revision).
>> > Since everyone is more or less "sleeping", there is no real TODO list.
>> > Maybe some code janitor work? Refactoring? Maybe c99-ify some of the code.
>> > Maybe you can suggest a feature? Or report a bug?
>> >
>> > Even though I'm not doing much on GNU Backgammon (I've not done much the
>> > last 10 years) these days, I guess if we just chat about some details, it
>> > might be the spark that starts up a new motivation among us. There are
>> > some discussions still on this mailing list, last week there was a new
>> > Match Equity Table presented (Thanks Ian). If we just chat more, maybe
>> > something can start flowing again. I'm getting more time as my kids grow
>> > older. So, who knows what happens.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > -Øystein
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:58 PM Sarah Payne <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello there. Been a huge fan for many years of gnu backgammon, many thanks
>> > to everyone involved. Is the software still under development with new
>> > versions coming? Is it possible to contribute directly to this project?
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Sarah
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bug-gnubg mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnubg
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Bug-gnubg Digest, Vol 202, Issue 16
>> ******************************************