[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
bug#56799: (gnu services configuration) usage of *unspecified* is proble
From: |
bokr |
Subject: |
bug#56799: (gnu services configuration) usage of *unspecified* is problematic |
Date: |
Thu, 28 Jul 2022 06:55:06 +0200 |
User-agent: |
Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) |
Hi,
On +2022-07-27 14:31:32 -0400, Maxim Cournoyer wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Tobias Geerinckx-Rice <me@tobias.gr> writes:
>
> > Hi Maxim,
> >
> > Maxim Cournoyer 写道:
> >> I'd suggest we revisit 8cb1a49a3998c39f315a4199b7d4a121a6d66449 to
> >> use
> >> 'unspecified (the symbol) instead of *unspecified*, which *can* be
> >> serialized without any fuss in gexps.
> >
> > Bah. Could we provide our own reader?
> >
> > I'd much rather this be addressed in Guile (or failing that,
> > transparently by Guix) than have to deal with some magical
> > symbol. IIRC that was the argument for using *unspecified* in the
> > first place, and I think it makes sense.
> >
> > This looks more like an unexplored oversight than a well-reasoned
> > restriction to me.
>
> This was my original impression, but thinking more about it, it became
> apparent that *unspecified* is well, unspecified and shouldn't be relied
> on by people to be something well defined. For some background reading,
> see [0]. So it seems wrong in Scheme to actively set things to
> *unspecified*, and give a specific meaning to that.
>
> I think the semantic of the language is that it is to be used as the
> lack of a return value from a procedure or syntax, e.g.:
>
> (unspecified? (if #f 'one-arm-if)) -> #t
>
> Having 'unspecified?' even defined in Guile seems to go against that
> idea; perhaps because Wingo themselves seems to disagree in [0].
>
> I'm also thinking 'unspecified being too close to *unspecified* is
> probably going to cause confusion down the line. Reverting to the
> originally used 'disabled may be the lesser evil.
>
> Other thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Maxim
>
> [0]
> https://scheme-reports.scheme-reports.narkive.com/QSQtJSAh/unspecified-values
>
>
>
Lots of systems are dealing with this issue, it seems, judging from
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_type
I think the problem is you really need a tuple to return both data and metadata
unambiguously from anything that produces a result (or not, which is a result).
Something like read-delimited with the 'split option, or using catch.
Personally, if I were designing a language :), my goal would be to have
nothing unspecified, and no undefined behaviour outside of physical failures ;-)
*unspecified* seems me like an ok word for the unasserted/high-impedance
state of tri-state memory address bus electronic logic,
but IMO the example above
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> (unspecified? (if #f 'one-arm-if)) -> #t
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
is not nice. (A nit, but For one thing "specified?" ought to be the question
IMO,
if you are ging to have that concept, not "unspecified?" :)
What about using characters from some private upper unicode section
to represent various kinds of unspecified things? E.g.,
as guile named chars,
#\unspecified_function_retval
#\unspecified_function_error
#\unspecified_macro_err
#\unspecified_exception
#\nil or #\not_an_object -- or #\nao -- can't use #\n :)
#\paradox -- e.g., (eval-nl-string "this sentence is lying")
#\nonsense -- e.g. when a question is based on false premises
(eval-nl-string "Bob is bareheaded: Bob, is your hat too tight?")
Hm, one could argue that (+ "ab" "cd") could be based on the false
premise that + was overloaded like
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
scheme@(guile-user) [1]> (let*( (+ string-append) (sum (+ "ab" "cd"))) sum)
$8 = "abcd"
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
and if it wasn't, should return #\nonsense :)
(though maybe as part of the exception, which is practical for
debugging etc :)
#\
#\guix_bottom -- a private unicode rather than U+22A5 which could be
returned as a valid character value by some functon.
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
$ echo -en "\u22a5"|unicode-info
"⊥":
glyph codepoint .....int name...
_⊥_ +U0022a5 8869 UP TACK
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
Well, hope you can extract something useful from the above :)
BTW, I didn't get far via the link [0] :(
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
🤖 Hungry for data? 🤖
As you guessed, this page is to confirm your affiliation to the human race.
about - legalese
Loading...
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
Ok machine, you identified me as human, and kept me out. Happy?
No, I know, machines can only fake that.
--
Regards,
Bengt Richter
- bug#56799: (gnu services configuration) usage of *unspecified* is problematic, (continued)
- bug#56799: (gnu services configuration) usage of *unspecified* is problematic, Maxim Cournoyer, 2022/07/27
- bug#56799: (gnu services configuration) usage of *unspecified* is problematic, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, 2022/07/27
- bug#56799: (gnu services configuration) usage of *unspecified* is problematic, Maxim Cournoyer, 2022/07/27
- bug#56799: [PATCH] services: configuration: Step back from *unspecified*., Maxim Cournoyer, 2022/07/27
- bug#56799: (gnu services configuration) usage of *unspecified* is problematic, Maxim Cournoyer, 2022/07/27
- bug#56799: [PATCH v2] gexp: Handle *unspecified* as a gexp input., Maxim Cournoyer, 2022/07/27
- bug#56799: [PATCH v2] gexp: Handle *unspecified* as a gexp input., Maxime Devos, 2022/07/27
- bug#56799: [PATCH v2] gexp: Handle *unspecified* as a gexp input., Maxim Cournoyer, 2022/07/28
- bug#56799: [PATCH v3] gexp: Handle *unspecified* as a gexp input., Maxim Cournoyer, 2022/07/28
- bug#56799: (gnu services configuration) usage of *unspecified* is problematic,
bokr <=
- bug#56799: (gnu services configuration) usage of *unspecified* is problematic, Maxime Devos, 2022/07/28
- bug#56799: (gnu services configuration) usage of *unspecified* is problematic, Maxim Cournoyer, 2022/07/28