Re: Discuss-gnustep Digest, Vol 260, Issue 23

[Ondrej Florian]

Hi Thomas,

I just want to confirm Sergii's reply; NextSpace is superior project to GSDE.
It is superior in that it originates as fork of NextSpace and also as it has 
much better architecture and cleaner code base.

GSDE is NOT intended for mass audience. It was and will remain to be just an 
experiment.
One of its drawbacks is that is incompatible with NextSpace.
This is not something that can be easily fixed. 
GSDE uses gcc by default, whereas NextSpace needs modern clang.

Thanks,
Ondrej

On 2024-07-21 12:25:47 +0200 Sergii Stoian <stoyan255@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
>> On 21 Jul 2024, at 07:30, Thomas Heckert <t.heckert@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Sergij,
> 
>> OK. That means at the end contrary to all the other window managers with 
>> XORG or wayland who peacefully coexist you have a figth with GSDE or wmaker 
>> about the rule of GNUstep
>> according to the principle: There can only be one.
> 
> I don’t fight with any project. At the time of project start I planned to 
> create complete OS in the NeXTSTEP style.
> That’s why NextSpace has login manger (Login application) and workspace 
> manager (Workspace) integrated to each other. For example, when user executes 
> “Power Off” in Workspace, Login understands it and immediately shuts down 
> OS without login panel presentation.
> 
>> How many people are programming on Gnome, Mint, KDE etc. and how many on 
>> GNUstep?
>> I doubt that Apple and M$ have only 20 programmers and the rest of the 
>> hundreds of thousend employees are controllers.
> 
> I don’t understand what you are talking about. I’m the only developer who 
> writes the code in NextSpace. NextSpace and GNUustep is a different projects. 
> What is your point?
> 
>> Is that good for the user who tries to find out the best fitting 
>> environment for himself?
>> I can switch between XFCE, gnome etc. trouble-free but the 3 one for 
>> GNUstep will damage each other?
> 
> Why do you need a bunch of environments? If you want to test new one - create 
> VM.
> 
> I don’t quite understand what do you mean by “damage”. GSDE author 
> forked my code and changed it without upstreaming changes. Contrary to that, 
> almost all my changes to GNUstep libraries were upstreamed and NextSpace can 
> use vanilla GNUstep installation.
> 
> Look at the problem from this point: GSDE conflicts with NextSpace 
> installation. Because NextSpace is a superior project to GSDE.
> 
>>   Wouldn´t it be better to act with the object orientation method? Why not 
>> make a deal with the other one to clear what are the commonalities and how 
>> to handle?
>> Maybe you outsource the framework topic into a, I don't know, framework 
>> manager (like git ;-) ) where Nextspace, GSDE, Wmaker store their equal and 
>> different back ground libraries
>> and switching will be managed with a preference list? So you could test and 
>> try?
> 
> I think you’re talking to a wrong person. I haven't got any requests from 
> the author of GSDE to make, for example, frameworks as separate project on 
> GitHub.
> I’ve wrote to Ondrej about his plans to upstream changes, he's agreed and 
> nothing happened yet.
> By the way, he’s made several enhancements to NextSpace in the past but 
> decided to fire up its own project for some reason.
> 
>> Best regards
> 
> 
>> Thomas
> 
> 
> 
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Juli 2024 um 00:45 Uhr
>> Von: "Sergii Stoian" <stoyan255@gmail.com>
>> An: "Thomas Heckert" <t.heckert@gmx.de>
>> Cc: discuss-gnustep@gnu.org
>> Betreff: Re: Discuss-gnustep Digest, Vol 260, Issue 23
>> Hi Thomas,
> 
>> On 19 Jul 2024, at 23:06, Thomas Heckert <t.heckert@gmx.de 
>> <mailto:t.heckert@gmx.de>> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Sergij,
> 
>> sounds good. I run your installation script for Debian 12 to see how 
>> Nextspace works but it stops with the failure message that 
>> debian-12.deps.sh wasn't found.
> 
>> Yes that’s my fault. I’ve reuploaded .tgz with all files needed.
> 
>> I can´t find this script in the folder.
>> Do I understand it right that your installationscript will kill GSDE as in 
>> your script you create the folder structure Apps, Developer etc. with the 
>> usual GNUstep apps and add a new user?
> 
>> Generally it’s a bad idea to mix GSDE and NextSpace installation because 
>> GSDE uses NextSpace frameworks which may interfere in a bad way.
>> It’s better to remove GSDE components completely and install NextSpace 
>> after that.
>> Adding user is an optional step and would be useful on cleanly installed 
>> system.
> 
> 
>> Thomas
> 
> 
> 
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Juli 2024 um 14:27 Uhr
>> Von: "Sergii Stoian" <stoyan255@gmail.com <mailto:stoyan255@gmail.com>>
>> An: t.heckert@gmx.de <mailto:t.heckert@gmx.de>
>> Cc: discuss-gnustep@gnu.org <mailto:discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>
>> Betreff: Re: Re: Discuss-gnustep Digest, Vol 260, Issue 23
>> Hi Thomas,
> 
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 11:18 AM <t.heckert@gmx.de 
>> <mailto:t.heckert@gmx.de>> wrote:
>> Hi Sergij,
> 
>> as far as I know, Ondrej forked  wmaker 0.95.9. Maybe I am wrong.
> 
>> But anyway. As Riccardo adviced I think it would be a good idea to bring 
>> the people who are working on the different window managers (NextSpace, 
>> GS-wmaker, wmaker)
>> together to focus/concentrate and increase the speed of development and 
>> avoid unnecessary effort to improve the code.
> 
>> It's a good idea. Although NextSpace doesn't use WindowMaker. It uses some 
>> code from WindowMaker: window management, Dock, icons. Everything else: 
>> event and configuration management, notifications, data structures is based 
>> on Apple CoreFoundation. There's no WINGs graphical elements anymore 
>> (except titlebars, resizebars and menus) - GNUstep used for this. So 
>> Workspace is quite different to WindowMaker. Workspace and Window Manager 
>> tight integration has advantages: user can drag and drop FileViewer 
>> appicons into the Dock and application will be docked, application 
>> launching/stopping can be tracked from both sides (Xlib events and GNUstep 
>> notifications), window manager can get AppKit notifications through the 
>> Appkit<->CoreFoundation bridge and so on.
>> Simple example: I've implemented "Hide All" in Workspace using 
>> NSNotification that catched by Window Manager without touching GNUstep Back 
>> part, as well as "Zoom" and "Shade" in Window submenu items.
> 
>> So speaking in context of GNUstep application integration with window 
>> manager, Workspace is superior to WindowMaker.
> 
>> So for instance I found that in GSDE a new created Drawer loses the 
>> information of the Application path and arguments after a restart.
>> The Drawer uses the middle-click method of a (standard) terminal to copy 
>> paste when you editing the settings not the #c + #v.
>> And the Drawer has to be started with middle-click instead of double 
>> left-click , maybe I start a standard Debian app? Where to change this?
> 
> 
>> Workspace doesn't have Drawers and Clip because I don't like it from a 
>> design point of view. So I can't help to solve this problem, sorry.
> 
> 
>> Thomas
> 
> 
> 
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Juli 2024 um 00:39 Uhr
>> Von: "Sergii Stoian" <stoyan255@gmail.com <mailto:stoyan255@gmail.com>>
>> An: "Tom Sheffler" <tom.sheffler@gmail.com <mailto:tom.sheffler@gmail.com>>
>> Cc: discuss-gnustep@gnu.org <mailto:discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>
>> Betreff: Re: Discuss-gnustep Digest, Vol 260, Issue 23
>> Hi Tom,
> 
>>> On 18 Jul 2024, at 19:56, Tom Sheffler <tom.sheffler@gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:tom.sheffler@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Sergii -
>>> 
>>> this is very exciting and I will try it out.
>>> 
>>> I’m currently using onflapp/gs-desktop on a regular basis. Running 
>>> GNUstep applications in a full GS desktop environment let’s them shine!
>>> 
>>> Curious though, what is the relationship between gs-desktop and NextSpace? 
>>> They seem to be addressing similar things. Or are they? I’m truly 
>>> curious, and may be wrong that they have similar goals.
> 
>> As far as I know GSDE uses NextSpace code forked at some point with 
>> improvements to Preferences and some frameworks.
> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tom
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 18, 2024, at 9:00 AM, discuss-gnustep-request@gnu.org 
>>>> <mailto:discuss-gnustep-request@gnu.org> wrote:
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>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. ANNOUNCE: NextSpace 0.95 (Sergii Stoian)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 16:28:49 +0300
>>>> From: Sergii Stoian <stoyan255@gmail.com <mailto:stoyan255@gmail.com>>
>>>> To: DISCUSS GNUstep <discuss-gnustep@gnu.org 
>>>> <mailto:discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>>
>>>> Cc: GNUstep Developers <gnustep-dev@gnu.org <mailto:gnustep-dev@gnu.org>>
>>>> Subject: ANNOUNCE: NextSpace 0.95
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <CAFhM7xkpZG6mc=HGVBDTWevHtHo45GPcD0bYEojs6nA2inaLkg@mail.gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:HGVBDTWevHtHo45GPcD0bYEojs6nA2inaLkg@mail.gmail.com>>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> Hello everyone!
>>>> 
>>>> I'm pleased to announce the new NextSpace release - 0.95.
>>>> This release introduces:
>>>> 
>>>> - Numerous of bugfixes across the entire project;
>>>> - Serious reengineering of Workspace and Window Manager including:
>>>> - switch to Apple's CoreFoundation for internal data structures;
>>>> - event handling of Window Manager was implemented with CFRunLoop,
>>>> CFFileDescriptor and CFNotificationCenter;
>>>> - use XML for configuration files;
>>>> - implemented notification interoperability between Objective C and C
>>>> (external GNUstep applications may send notifications to Window Manager);
>>>> - improved drag and drop between File Viewer and Dock;
>>>> - implemented Cut/Copy/Paste operations for files and directories.
>>>> - Feature completion of Terminal application, including:
>>>> - unlimited scrollback buffer support;
>>>> - process tracking (Activity Monitor), display running program in
>>>> titlebar;
>>>> - miniwindow animation representing activity in minimized window;
>>>> - automatic hide/show of mouse cursor.
>>>> - Workspace tracks for applications and services installation/removal,
>>>> updates files in ~/Library/Services;
>>>> - Greatly improved scripts to build and install project from sources -
>>>> tested on Fedora, Ubuntu 22 and Debian 12.
>>>> 
>>>> Look into changelog
>>>> <https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/blob/master/Documentation/Changelog-0.95.md
>>>>  
>>>> <https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/blob/master/Documentation/Changelog-0.95.md>>
>>>> for details.
>>>> 
>>>> This release was built for 3 distributions of RedHat family: CentOS 7,
>>>> Debian 12, Ubuntu 22.04, Fedora 39. Download it from:
>>>> https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/releases/tag/0.95 
>>>> <https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/releases/tag/0.95>
>>>> --
>>>> Sergii Stoian,
>>>> NEXTSPACE owner, lead developer
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>>>> End of Discuss-gnustep Digest, Vol 260, Issue 23
>>>> ************************************************
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> --
>> Sergii
> 
>