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[DotGNU]2nd/3rd session summary
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From: |
S11001001 |
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Subject: |
[DotGNU]2nd/3rd session summary |
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Date: |
Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:43:41 -0600 |
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User-agent: |
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020310 |
I apologise for not having complete logs...thanks to sbp for these, BTW
session 1 note: I wasn't really there....
the Players: David Sugar, Gopal.V, John Le'Brecage, Mark Peters, Barry
Fitzgerald, me, Norbert Bollow, Miles Lott, Sean Palmer, Daniel Baumann, sorry
if I forgot you
We open with an argument between Gopal.V, Bill Lance, and ^CareBear about the
architecture. ^CareBear says: "I've only had bad thoughts of DotGNU until I
visited this channel today, heh, cause after I read the website the first time
I almost laughed". Gopal.V: "I think it will scare any developers not *true* to
the free software idea". Then there was talk about the shortage of developers
and lack of publicity, and FS licenses.
I believe ^CareBear expressed interest in building proprietary apps for the
platform, and he/she was assured that there would be no licensing problem.
However, he/she did not appear confident..."that's what their supposed to do
(compete w/.NET) .. it won't happen, but something good could possibly get out
of it all". lstrcmpi stepped in and defended the DotGNU idea, comparing it to
successful FS projects Linux and Apache. Daniel Baumann of GNUe complained
"dotgnu is GNU's poster child as of late...and other projects get the shaft"
Anyway, you get the idea...
Lull in conversation...
Nice conversation about Darwin, WinXP, GNU
Norbert returns and conversation turns to VRS and SEE/DEE. Then, there is an
argument about RPC, which turns into an argument about XML, HTTP, and
WebServices. Bill Lance posts the link to the VRS page
(http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/VRS/) about 15 times from this point on. So I
say, after a little side chat with Gopal.V, "OK, I would like your attention
for just one second. I apologise for interrupting chatting, but this will be
fun ;)...". Next are introductions of Norbert Bollow, Barry Fitzgerald, Gopal.V
(pnet), Bill Lance (VRS), David Sugar, John Le'Brecage (auth), Mark Peters and
Miles Lott (phpgw), with sidetracking into their respective projects not only
providing some structure to the chat, but bringing us from 2020GMT to the end
of the 3rd session.
Sorry for not knowing when one session ended and the other began, I only got
here at 1900GMT. We Americans love our weekend sleep :) in contrast to Gopal.V,
who stayed on from last evening CDT to after his introduction (cue oohs and ahhs).
--
Personally, I think my choice in the mostest-superlative-computer wars has to
be the HP-48 series of calculators. They'll run almost anything. And if they
can't, while I'll just plug a Linux box into the serial port and load up the
HP-48 VT-100 emulator.
-- Jeff Dege, address@hidden
Start of #dotgnu buffer: Sat Mar 16 20:26:04 2002
*** Now talking in #dotgnu
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: This would be packaged as a DataSet consisting of the
id
data, and pnet IL code to verify the asker and provide it
-vinge.openprojects.net:#dotgnu- earlie (address@hidden
t) left the channel
<t3rmin4t0r> that's where I got the RFC number
<skeeter> that's the problem... don't chunk_split() it out...
<Milosch> chunk_what?
<skeeter> at least for the auth
<t3rmin4t0r> in /var/www/html/manual/mod/mod_php4/function.chunk-split.html
<^CareBear> peer2peer systems looks like an awesome way of doing stuff, all of
you
should read this article:
http://www.sciam.com/2002/0302issue/0302anderson.html
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: You may wish to read the draft docs on the VRS at:
http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/VRS/
<Milosch> $credentials = 'Authorization: Basic ' . base64_encode($username .
':' .
$password) . "\r\n";
-vinge.openprojects.net:#dotgnu- earlie (address@hidden
t) joined the channel
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: that is what VRS is all about
<Milosch> this method is within the XML-RPC for php dist, and phpgw
<^CareBear> ah, NOW I understand what VRS means .. hehe
<t3rmin4t0r> # format $data using RFC 2045 semantics
<t3rmin4t0r> $new_string = chunk_split (base64_encode($data));
<t3rmin4t0r> is what the docs says
<t3rmin4t0r> php's default base64encode dosen't use it
<Milosch> oops, never heard of chunk_split...
-vinge.openprojects.net:#dotgnu- stline (address@hidden) joined the channel
<Milosch> so.. ;)
<Milosch> no wonder it works for me ;)
<t3rmin4t0r> but python's does (and it took me 2 days to figure it out)
<t3rmin4t0r> Milosch: I used chunk_split when I did a small websmail stuff
<t3rmin4t0r> for the attatchments
<^CareBear> VRS is the future but it will take some effort and time
<Milosch> my little mod for perl Frontier does the same thing...
<^CareBear> bill_lance, seen the Terrarium game?
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Tell me about it :( Want to help?
<^CareBear> I have enough of my own work & personal projects :)
<t3rmin4t0r> ^CareBear: I think he meant ideas on the mailing list
<^CareBear> but bill_lance, seen terrarium?
-vinge.openprojects.net:#dotgnu- spectra_cruz_alta (address@hidden) joined
the channel
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Ya, well, I saw an article and adds about it.
<<sigh>>
Ya, I wish we could do that now too.
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, I already got hundreds of list messages each day ...
maybe
in the future ;)
* t3rmin4t0r clocks at about 72 a day
<Milosch> brb
<^CareBear> bill_lance, yepp it looks neat I just wish I could run it here ..
but
due to ISP router & firewall setup it's impossible :-|
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: When Pnet's running, we should be about todo similar
things
<nymia> hello
<nymia> quick treecc question...
<t3rmin4t0r> yes,
<skeeter> is someone logging this?
<^CareBear> http://www.gotdotnet.com/terrarium/whatis/ <-- bill_lance, that's
just
what you need .. so instead of "bugs" running around on the screen, you
distribute Web Services and other code to each peer :)
<t3rmin4t0r> yes, but the logs are unreachable
<t3rmin4t0r> at least now
<t3rmin4t0r> skeeter: can you arrange a bot ?
<t3rmin4t0r> and put the logs online
* t3rmin4t0r can't find where the logs are written by _scribe_
<skeeter> I don't have a logging bot... Milosch?
<^CareBear> bill_lance, you think you can make it work behind weird router
setup
and firewalls?
<t3rmin4t0r> nymia: what was that question ?
<spectra_cruz_alta> ALL: who are the moderators and what is the current topic
of
the discussion?
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: I don't basically have a problem with IL, other than
it's
Windows OS centric. I DO have a problem with central servers
<nymia> waitasec...
<t3rmin4t0r> no moderators , and the topic is currently unset
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: You mean make VRS work through a firewall?
<^CareBear> bill_lance, why did you bring up central servers? ...
<dyfet> spectra_cruz_alta: the first part of the meet-athon is really an open
discussion, there are seperate focused discussions later this afternoon and
evening (speaking east coast time :)
<t3rmin4t0r> dyfet: hi
<^CareBear> as Terrarium is a peer2peer solution proving the concept possible
<spectra_cruz_alta> dyfet: Where can I get the "program"?
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: I was just thinking of Terrium
<t3rmin4t0r> spectra_cruz_alta: ????
<t3rmin4t0r> oh the schedule ?
<^CareBear> it doesn't use a central server, or it uses some for discovery but
that's all
<spectra_cruz_alta> t3rmin4t0r: yep. the schedule (I am not a native english
speaker... sorry).
* t3rmin4t0r had tried to put it on Slashdot but fizzled out
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Ah .. Is see. Don't know the deatails of it. If it's
pure p2p, what MS's hook into it?
<t3rmin4t0r> spectra_cruz_alta: me neither
<spectra_cruz_alta> t3rmin4t0r: :-)
<^CareBear> bill_lance, it's very tempting with a peer2peer type solution, but
it's
a to new idea that I haven't seen to much of today so I won't dare to do that
against our customers machines
<dyfet> spectra_cruz_alta: it was posted on the mailing list and on Linux
Today.
I had to look it up myself :) The first 12 hours (gmt based) is open topic
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: ? You lost me
<^CareBear> bill_lance, just said I don't see us (where I work) doing p2p until
it's more widely used and proven as a useable platform
<t3rmin4t0r> Schedule
http://subscribe.dotgnu.org/pipermail/developers/2002-March/00
2250.html
<spectra_cruz_alta> t3rmin4t0r: thanx... I'm going to retrieve that.
<^CareBear> bill_lance, back to terrarium, they wanted to have it 100% pure p2p
(no
central server at ALL) but they found it impossible or to hard so they have a
central server that all peers "pings" when their ready to recieve code from
the
other peers
<Milosch> have to leave, will be back in a few hours...
<t3rmin4t0r> bye Milosch
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: That's certainly understandable. But we are on the
reasearch edge here :) I always preffered the labs :0
<dyfet> t3rmin4t0r: excelland, I was just looking for that....
<t3rmin4t0r> dyfet: afterall I posted that ;)
<^CareBear> bill_lance, I haven't done much reading on p2p, but the Terrarium
system is something you should really look into if you haven't yet, as it's a
live-working-modell of the whole framework you guys need for dotGnu
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: I will
-vinge.openprojects.net:#dotgnu- SidNL (address@hidden)
joined the channel
<^CareBear> http://www.gotdotnet.com/terrarium/server/ <- fat, I can even host
a
Terrarium server locally .. whee, gotta download :)
<dyfet> t3rmin4t0r: yes, it was a bit hard to find. We probably should have
had it
up on the dotgnu web site :). When Norbert gets back, maybe he can add a
quick
link for that.
<t3rmin4t0r> dyfet: can you change the topic here ?
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Is ther a linux client?
<dyfet> t3rmin4t0r: I dont believe I had op
<t3rmin4t0r> ok
<spectra_cruz_alta> t3rmin4t0r, dyfet: When the first block will begin?
<^CareBear> no, really don't think so
<t3rmin4t0r> began abt 6 hours ago
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: hehe thought that might be the case.
<dyfet> I think he means the first focused group
<^CareBear> bill_lance, if you have access to a Windows PC I suggest you watch
this
to learn more about the details behind Terrarium and you'll learn about some
of
the problems Microsoft faced when they built the p2p platform:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/theshow/Episode021/default.asp
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Do you think there ever will be?
<t3rmin4t0r> ok, that will be 10 PM GMT Saturday (timezones,timezones...)
<spectra_cruz_alta> t3rmin4t0r: ok... soh after the next 6 hours, the
topic-only
discussion will begin... is that right?
<^CareBear> not sure .. Terrarium will just be running for a little while I
think,
I don't think Microsoft will be running the game for ethernity .. but I don't
know, maybe there will be
<t3rmin4t0r> no, after tthe first 12 hours, ie 6 hours from now
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: I do keep a win98 machine on my het for games. :)
<spectra_cruz_alta> t3rmin4t0r: yep... that's what I meant.
<^CareBear> I wounder what Microsoft is going to use the p2p platform for ... i
mean, they can't be using it ONLY for a game :)
<spectra_cruz_alta> ALL; thanx... be back in 5 hours.
<^CareBear> bill_lance, then check that .NET Show .. it's really great
<dyfet> I have to go for a bit also...
<t3rmin4t0r> ok
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: I don't know, but I can be sure it will be something
damaging to everybody else
* t3rmin4t0r too , I'm just here to "SEE" ;)
<^CareBear> "Terrarium is a multiplayer ecosystem game developed using the .NET
Framework. Developers can create their own creatures and add them into the
game
on their own client machine." .. no difference if you had different
WebServices
instead of creatures
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: That's the kind of thought we have with VRS. Although
that can be done on single standing servers just as well
<^CareBear> how will that be possible? .. how do you discover new clients?
<^CareBear> the SEE is important to yes.. will it be modelled upon the Code
Access
Security in .NET or?
<t3rmin4t0r> The SEE will implement a set of security check call backs
<t3rmin4t0r> and we've not read any *unpublished* information on MSDN
<t3rmin4t0r> about CAS
<^CareBear> what you mean?..
<t3rmin4t0r> the MSDN article said that "this is unpublished information"
<^CareBear> only 3 developers working on SEE?
<^CareBear> heh
<t3rmin4t0r> same for .NET beta docs
<t3rmin4t0r> ^CareBear: actually nobody working fulltime on SEE
<t3rmin4t0r> It's at stub level
<^CareBear> but SEE is the single most important thing of the whole DotGNU idea?
<t3rmin4t0r> yes, It's the most complicated stuff as well
<^CareBear> yeh, so why only 3 developers and nobody working fulltime?
<^CareBear> how many people are active contributers on DotGNU?
<t3rmin4t0r> the lack of publicity of DotGNU is causing a drought of developers
<^CareBear> I've only had bad thoughts of DotGNU until I visited this channel
today, heh, cause after I read the website the first time I almost laughed
<t3rmin4t0r> pass that joke please ;)
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Sorry got called to the phone,
<^CareBear> everything seems to hostile against any Microsoft and .NET, which I
think do scare alot of very good developers from the whole idea
-vinge.openprojects.net:#dotgnu- kefka (address@hidden
t) joined the channel
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: There is that sentiment...
<t3rmin4t0r> I think it will scare any developers not *true* to the free
software
idea
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: If the technology developed here works, it will be
available to everybody. Look what's happened with Linux kernel
<^CareBear> I don't have any "true" free software developer friends, but I have
loads who do multi-platform development, both on OS and language
<^CareBear> I've personally developed on Linux, Mac and Windows, but only Perl
&
PHP on Linux, while both web, webservices & rich clients on Mac and Windows
<kn4l> I not hostile to MSFt, just wary. ;)
<chillywilly> lack of publicity?
<^CareBear> I wounder what would happen if PHP got GPL'ed :)
<chillywilly> it seems to me that dotgnu is GNU's poster child as of late
<chillywilly> and other projects get the shaft
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: MS has caused, and continues to cause, an increadable
amount of damage. Why do people find it offensive that we object to that and
are
trying to correct it?
<chillywilly> but that's my opinion :P
* chillywilly is away: I'm busy
<bill_lance> brb ... dog nneds out
*** Topic is '<S11001001:#dotgnu> things are heating up on [bizplan] :)'
*** Set by ChanServ on Wed Mar 06 18:53:11
<^CareBear> bill_lance, I just see offensive and hostile attitude against
someone
who you are "copying" the idea from not beeing a good way of drawing
attentition
from developers
<kn4l> The new technology from MSFT appears to be good, so why shouldn't we
support
that aspect of it? However, we can oppose some of their tactics.
*** kefka has joined #dotgnu
<^CareBear> you guys know that the .NET My Services will be available for local
installation and hosting wherever you'd like?
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: No doubt your right. Some times I find my feelings
about
MS over the bank. But I remain appaled and frightened by their intent.
<davi> ^CareBear: Do you think that PHP must not GPL'ed?. Have I understood
rightly?
<davi> s/not /not get/
<^CareBear> davi, it was dual licenced in version 3, but not anymore so it's
only
under a PHP licence now, no more GPL :-|
*** metric has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
<^CareBear> does GPL proponents mean it's the only and true way of licencing?
<davi> ^CareBear: I think now that you agree with me that this situation is
worse
than previous one.
<^CareBear> davi .. not following you.. :)
<davi> ^CareBear: GPL is not the 'one way' however I think that is the best way
to
avoid turn into propietary a product.
<^CareBear> oki
<davi> This is my oppinion.
<^CareBear> hehe, "Don't read unpublished Microsoft information" .. I guess I
can't
contribute to the DotGNU project as I have accepted quite a few licences on
microsoft.com ;)
<davi> s/oppinion/opinion
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: The GPL remains the one way that a developer can be
confient that their contributions remain open and available
<davi> bill_lance: I agree with you
<sbp> N.B. there are plenty of FS compatible lisences... not just GPL
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: That may be a real danger.
<davi> sbp: for example?
<sbp> zooko made a table: http://www.zooko.com/license_quick_ref.html
<sbp> to quote: """Some members of the community refuse to accept GPL'ed source
code into their projects, although other members of the community strongly
prefer
GPL'ed source code over other licenses. Contrast with code under BSD-etal.,
LGPL,
or Mozilla PL 1.1, which nobody refuses to accept."""
<^CareBear> I wish PHP could get GPL'ed :) .. ooh..I guess alot of people would
be
mad about that ;)
<^CareBear> bill_lance, if you stole something from me and used it in DotGNU,
would
there be any violation then?
<^CareBear> other than the fact that you stole something from me
<davi> sbp: I think that the LGPL license must be used in some cases, but when
posible I would use GPL to avoid propietary ... as with BSD.
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: If I stole something from you, there would be a
violation
of your rights, no matter what license i claimed
<sbp> yeah; that's the kind of desicison that has to be made before you start a
project - whether or not you're going to let people resell the ideas in their
own
apps. And it's a tough choice sometimes
<^CareBear> bill_lance .. but if I don't charge you or anything? :)
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: You have the right to decide what you want to do with
your
code.
*** s3gfault has joined #dotgnu
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: So do the GPL developers
*** t3rmin4t0r has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: I no more have a right to steal your stuff and GPL it,
as
you would to steal GPL code and propriotize it
<^CareBear> but I can't really contribute to DotGNU due to some of the
Microsoft
licences, like the Shared Source one or was it something else .. that
probithed
the involvement in GPL projects as it could force Microsoft to expose some of
their code .. which is all just SILLY and STUPID .. but, who cares
<kn4l> You might be able to contribute in some ways. Testing, for example.
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Don't you care?
<^CareBear> never cared, hence the nick :)
<^CareBear> testing is for lamas, I'm a architect and developer ;)
<^CareBear> an even.. hm.
<^CareBear> my english suck like no others
<sbp> heh
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Well you may be stuck then. However, one good thing
could
come of it.
<^CareBear> bill_lance, what's the timeline for DotGnu?
<^CareBear> I see it was founded in 2001, what have been achived since then and
how
does the future look?
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Same as any LibreSoftware project, I guess, When it's
ready
<^CareBear> I just come to think of all the other advancements Microsoft is
going
to include into the .NET framework as the years go by, and it could possibly
be
very hard to keep up
<davi> bill_lance: What moduls, subproject has source code right now?
<^CareBear> right now the .NET framework is very new and not feature-complete
yet
<kn4l> ^CareBear: Advancements == Evil tricks ;)
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: It would really be helpful to us if we had a very hard
example of a developer prevented to do LibreSoftware development due to MS
licensses and agreements
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Can you say that describes your situation?
<^CareBear> kn4l, advacements = multiple inheretence, native support for MSMQ,
and
so forth .. there are alot of stuff right now where you have to use COM
interop
which is not the idea behind .NET, but it misses stuff
<^CareBear> bill_lance, if I want to contribute on DotGNU I do it nomatter
what, MS
won't be getting anywhere
<kn4l> ^CareBear: I'm sure they'll be great, but I contend that many of their
advancements in the past have had less than altruistic motivations. That is,
let's break RealAudio at the same time we give ours away for free.
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<bill_lance> davi: I'm not the one to ask this, but I believe that pnet is the
most developed central project with working code. VRS does not have code
yet.
We are still sritecturing
<^CareBear> kn4l, when I think of .NET I mainly think about the .NET Framework
and
not all the other stuff around like .NET Enterprise Servers, .NET Passport,
.NET
My Services, it's the framework and development tools I'm interrested in and
that's a whole different world
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: THere should be areas where your .NET exposure would
not
be relevant
<kn4l> Yes, but you can be sure they're arranging it so if you use some of
those
things, you'll be "subtly coerced" into using them all.
<davi> bill_lance: ok
<^CareBear> bill_lance, yepp I'm pretty sure, I'm very deep into all the .NET
stuff
..
<^CareBear> will GPL be the only licence DotGNU will work under? .. LGPL or
what
was the name .. I mean, can I develop my own services and stuff on top of the
DotGNU framework without any trouble?
<kn4l> For example, VS.NET works really well for the developer if you're using
MSFT
SQL Server (you can browse the server, drag over databases or whatever). It
doesn't work well with mysql, or postgresql I bet :)
* kn4l idles.. exercise / shower / food.
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: LGPL works here just fine.
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Basically, we are all working to bring the same
development tools of the reat of the world without the damage.
<^CareBear> kn4l, the odcb driver makes it easy to work against other DB
plattforms
and Microsoft is working on native Oracle driver for .NET, the server
explorer
will most likely require the thirdparty to develop and extention to VS.NET
(which
is very extensible) .. I don't think Microsoft would add support for things
like
mysql out-of-the-box, as it's very different from MSSQL and it wouldn't
really
make Microsoft sell more software, and it would require microso
<^CareBear> develop an .. not and
<^CareBear> Microsoft diden't add support for COBOL, Perl or Python in VS.NET,
but
made it possible for third party providers to do it, the same thing is
possible
with the Server Explorer
<kn4l> I would think enhancements to mysql and postgresql that made them work
with
server explorer would be popular.
<^CareBear> that's right kn4l, but it's nothing you will ever see from
Microsoft,
that wouldn't make sense
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<kn4l> I'm curious if the ActiveState Python works as completely as C# or
VB.NET.
*** brainless has joined #dotgnu
<kn4l> Anyhow, I'm running up against a deadline, I'll be back later today. :)
<brainless> hey all
<earlie> I have yet to use dev studio .net
<^CareBear> I don't remember what language it was, but one of the new languages
for
.NET supports multiple inheretence, something not even C# supports (the .NET
framework even)
*** chilan has quit IRC ("BitchX-1.0c18 -- just do it.")
<^CareBear> VB.NET supports things C# don't, and visa-verca
<^CareBear> versa
<^CareBear> : )
<davi> ^CareBear: I have heard that multiple inheretence is dangerous
<^CareBear> davi, from a stupid person?
<davi> :)
<davi> no coment
<bill_lance> Must sign off a while. Back later. Bye all, and hope you
decide to
visit us again Carebear
<brainless> forgive my ignorence, but are we doing this dotgnu project to serve
as
a competition to .NET?
<^CareBear> multiple inheretence requires skills and it can make your code
harder
to read, but that's not the primary reasons it's not included in the .NET
framework
<^CareBear> bye bill_lance & kn4l :)
<^CareBear> later
<^CareBear> <- not going yet
*** bill_lance has left #dotgnu ("Client Exiting")
<^CareBear> brainless, that's what their supposed to do .. it won't happen, but
something good could possibly get out of it all
<davi> ^CareBear: What is the primary reason?
<^CareBear> like the SEE, VRS, and WebServices
<brainless> ^CareBear: well then we need something more than good programs. we
need
financial backup, sponsors, advertisers and VC's ...
<^CareBear> davi, I don't remember exactly, but some of it was speed
<davi> ok
<brainless> coz i firmly believe, to beat Microsoft we need to market products
the
way M$ does. The present marketing strategy just won't suffice the task
<^CareBear> they diden't feel it was that important for most developers so to
make
it easier on themselfs they diden't implement it, but they are considering it
for
a future upgrade for C#
* Looking up ^CareBear user info...
*** earlie has quit IRC
<^CareBear> brainless, the current "marketing" of DotGNU doesn't even bring
developers onboard as I have understood which is basicly the first task of
any
project
<alexh> You can do MI with interfaces, supposedly.
<brainless> ^CareBear: i am speaking of the future. once we complete
DotGNU......what we need to do next.
<^CareBear> well.. interfaces doesn't inherent implementation ..
<^CareBear> brainless, DotGNU will never be finnished, at the Microsoft .NET
framework never will be
<brainless> but be4 that we need to convince people about the enormous
potential
our project contains....
<^CareBear> did COM ever get finnished? .. nah, it was upgraded and advanced
multiple times, just as everything
<alexh> ^CareBear: no, but you can aggregate functionality
<brainless> okay i mean when DotGNU is ready to be used as a base for other
developers
<^CareBear> brainless, I think it's a to big task compete with Microsoft's .NET
vision, it's virtually impossible, but the VRS, IDsec, SEE and WebServices
are
good ideas that should be prioritized
<^CareBear> and the Pnet of course to run everything
<lstrcmpi> brainless: what do you intend of doing? i think that if DotGNU will
be
part of linux in the way .NET is becmoing part of the next line of windows,
it
we'll suceed. that is using the "ms strategy" and still staying clean without
the
need for (yak yak) money.
<brainless> ^CareBear: i need to update my knowledge on that.....so can't
comment
<brainless> lstrcmpi: u mean to say we shall be doing all this free of cost?
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: the VRS, in my opinion, is a great idea, and it should be
done, asap, i wish to work on it, if possible.
<lstrcmpi> brainless: ofcourse.
<^CareBear> brainless, DotGNU can't compete with Microsoft on .NET Enterprise
Servers, that's one of the points that is virtually impossible to compete on
<brainless> lstrcmpi: then i am sorry to say we are adopting some wrong path.
history has umpteen examples of what happens when potentially good SDK's and
OS'es are offered free of cost.
<brainless> ^CareBear: not direct competition to M$, but atleast we are
offering a
substitute to M$ products
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, I showed mr bill_lance some resources on the Terrarium
game
project my Microsoft, which is a real and live p2p platform, it's something
all
VRS developers should take a look at
<^CareBear> brainless, it's impossible
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: why? i don't see any reason why. the good thing about
Net/DotGNU is that it's about the internet. hence it has alot in common with
linux two greatest products - Itself and Apache.
<brainless> ^CareBear: impossible in what context?
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: i think we should all look at the latest researches on
distirubted networks.
*** pep|borta is now known as peppo
<^CareBear> impossible to create competing solutions like the .NET Enterprise
Servers without being IBM or Sun or Oracle
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear : i really don't think. it is possible.
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, yepp and Microsoft Research are doing some great stuff on
p2p
stuff
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: how do you know that?
<brainless> ^CareBear: i think it's possible provided we get the best of minds
and
the right management to handle everything
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, show me a decent replacement for: Commerce Server,
Exchange
Server, Mobile Information Service, SharePoint Portal Server and BizTalk
Server
...
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<^CareBear> and that's not all...
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<^CareBear> I don't have any "true" free software developer
friends, but I have loads who do multi-platform development,
both on OS and language
<^CareBear> I've personally developed on Linux, Mac and
Windows, but only Perl & PHP on Linux, while both web,
webservices & rich clients on Mac and Windows
<kn4l> I not hostile to MSFt, just wary. ;)
<chillywilly> lack of publicity?
<^CareBear> I wounder what would happen if PHP got GPL'ed :)
<chillywilly> it seems to me that dotgnu is GNU's poster child
as of late
<chillywilly> and other projects get the shaft
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: MS has caused, and continues to
cause, an increadable amount of damage. Why do people find
it offensive that we object to that and are trying to
correct it?
<chillywilly> but that's my opinion :P
* chillywilly is away: I'm busy
<bill_lance> brb ... dog nneds out
-dircproxy:#dotgnu- You connected
<^CareBear> bill_lance, I just see offensive and hostile
attitude against someone who you are "copying" the idea from
not beeing a good way of drawing attentition from developers
<kn4l> The new technology from MSFT appears to be good, so why
shouldn't we support that aspect of it? However, we can
oppose some of their tactics.
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aren301.mi.comcast.net) joined the channel
<^CareBear> you guys know that the .NET My Services will be
available for local installation and hosting wherever you'd
like?
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: No doubt your right. Some times I
find my feelings about MS over the bank. But I remain
appaled and frightened by their intent.
<davi> ^CareBear: Do you think that PHP must not GPL'ed?. Have
I understood rightly?
<davi> s/not /not get/
<^CareBear> davi, it was dual licenced in version 3, but not
anymore so it's only under a PHP licence now, no more GPL :-|
<^CareBear> does GPL proponents mean it's the only and true
way of licencing?
<davi> ^CareBear: I think now that you agree with me that this
situation is worse than previous one.
<^CareBear> davi .. not following you.. :)
<davi> ^CareBear: GPL is not the 'one way' however I think
that is the best way to avoid turn into propietary a product.
<^CareBear> oki
<davi> This is my oppinion.
<^CareBear> hehe, "Don't read unpublished Microsoft
information" .. I guess I can't contribute to the DotGNU
project as I have accepted quite a few licences on
microsoft.com ;)
<davi> s/oppinion/opinion
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: The GPL remains the one way that a
developer can be confient that their contributions remain
open and available
<davi> bill_lance: I agree with you
<sbp> N.B. there are plenty of FS compatible lisences... not
just GPL
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: That may be a real danger.
<davi> sbp: for example?
<sbp> zooko made a table: http://www.zooko.com/license_quick_re
f.html
<sbp> to quote: """Some members of the community refuse to
accept GPL'ed source code into their projects, although
other members of the community strongly prefer GPL'ed source
code over other licenses. Contrast with code under
BSD-etal., LGPL, or Mozilla PL 1.1, which nobody refuses to
accept."""
<^CareBear> I wish PHP could get GPL'ed :) .. ooh..I guess
alot of people would be mad about that ;)
<^CareBear> bill_lance, if you stole something from me and
used it in DotGNU, would there be any violation then?
<^CareBear> other than the fact that you stole something from
me
<davi> sbp: I think that the LGPL license must be used in some
cases, but when posible I would use GPL to avoid propietary
... as with BSD.
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: If I stole something from you, there
would be a violation of your rights, no matter what license
i claimed
<sbp> yeah; that's the kind of desicison that has to be made
before you start a project - whether or not you're going to
let people resell the ideas in their own apps. And it's a
tough choice sometimes
<^CareBear> bill_lance .. but if I don't charge you or
anything? :)
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: You have the right to decide what you
want to do with your code.
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<bill_lance> ^CareBear: So do the GPL developers
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: I no more have a right to steal your
stuff and GPL it, as you would to steal GPL code and
propriotize it
<^CareBear> but I can't really contribute to DotGNU due to
some of the Microsoft licences, like the Shared Source one
or was it something else .. that probithed the involvement
in GPL projects as it could force Microsoft to expose some
of their code .. which is all just SILLY and STUPID .. but,
who cares
<kn4l> You might be able to contribute in some ways. Testing,
for example.
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Don't you care?
<^CareBear> never cared, hence the nick :)
<^CareBear> testing is for lamas, I'm a architect and
developer ;)
<^CareBear> an even.. hm.
<^CareBear> my english suck like no others
<sbp> heh
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Well you may be stuck then. However,
one good thing could come of it.
<^CareBear> bill_lance, what's the timeline for DotGnu?
<^CareBear> I see it was founded in 2001, what have been
achived since then and how does the future look?
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Same as any LibreSoftware project, I
guess, When it's ready
<^CareBear> I just come to think of all the other advancements
Microsoft is going to include into the .NET framework as the
years go by, and it could possibly be very hard to keep up
<davi> bill_lance: What moduls, subproject has source code
right now?
<^CareBear> right now the .NET framework is very new and not
feature-complete yet
<kn4l> ^CareBear: Advancements == Evil tricks ;)
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: It would really be helpful to us if
we had a very hard example of a developer prevented to do
LibreSoftware development due to MS licensses and agreements
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Can you say that describes your
situation?
<^CareBear> kn4l, advacements = multiple inheretence, native
support for MSMQ, and so forth .. there are alot of stuff
right now where you have to use COM interop which is not the
idea behind .NET, but it misses stuff
<^CareBear> bill_lance, if I want to contribute on DotGNU I do
it nomatter what, MS won't be getting anywhere
<kn4l> ^CareBear: I'm sure they'll be great, but I contend
that many of their advancements in the past have had less
than altruistic motivations. That is, let's break RealAudio
at the same time we give ours away for free.
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<bill_lance> davi: I'm not the one to ask this, but I believe
that pnet is the most developed central project with working
code. VRS does not have code yet. We are still sritecturing
<^CareBear> kn4l, when I think of .NET I mainly think about
the .NET Framework and not all the other stuff around like
.NET Enterprise Servers, .NET Passport, .NET My Services,
it's the framework and development tools I'm interrested in
and that's a whole different world
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: THere should be areas where your .NET
exposure would not be relevant
<kn4l> Yes, but you can be sure they're arranging it so if you
use some of those things, you'll be "subtly coerced" into
using them all.
<davi> bill_lance: ok
<^CareBear> bill_lance, yepp I'm pretty sure, I'm very deep
into all the .NET stuff ..
<^CareBear> will GPL be the only licence DotGNU will work
under? .. LGPL or what was the name .. I mean, can I develop
my own services and stuff on top of the DotGNU framework
without any trouble?
<kn4l> For example, VS.NET works really well for the developer
if you're using MSFT SQL Server (you can browse the server,
drag over databases or whatever). It doesn't work well with
mysql, or postgresql I bet :)
* kn4l idles.. exercise / shower / food.
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: LGPL works here just fine.
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Basically, we are all working to
bring the same development tools of the reat of the world
without the damage.
<^CareBear> kn4l, the odcb driver makes it easy to work
against other DB plattforms and Microsoft is working on
native Oracle driver for .NET, the server explorer will most
likely require the thirdparty to develop and extention to
VS.NET (which is very extensible) .. I don't think Microsoft
would add support for things like mysql out-of-the-box, as
it's very different from MSSQL and it wouldn't really make
Microsoft sell more software, and it would require microso
<^CareBear> develop an .. not and
<^CareBear> Microsoft diden't add support for COBOL, Perl or
Python in VS.NET, but made it possible for third party
providers to do it, the same thing is possible with the
Server Explorer
<kn4l> I would think enhancements to mysql and postgresql that
made them work with server explorer would be popular.
<^CareBear> that's right kn4l, but it's nothing you will ever
see from Microsoft, that wouldn't make sense
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<kn4l> I'm curious if the ActiveState Python works as
completely as C# or VB.NET.
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<kn4l> Anyhow, I'm running up against a deadline, I'll be back
later today. :)
<brainless> hey all
<earlie> I have yet to use dev studio .net
<^CareBear> I don't remember what language it was, but one of
the new languages for .NET supports multiple inheretence,
something not even C# supports (the .NET framework even)
<^CareBear> VB.NET supports things C# don't, and visa-verca
<^CareBear> versa
<^CareBear> : )
<davi> ^CareBear: I have heard that multiple inheretence is
dangerous
<^CareBear> davi, from a stupid person?
<davi> :)
<davi> no coment
<bill_lance> Must sign off a while. Back later. Bye all,
and hope you decide to visit us again Carebear
<brainless> forgive my ignorence, but are we doing this dotgnu
project to serve as a competition to .NET?
<^CareBear> multiple inheretence requires skills and it can
make your code harder to read, but that's not the primary
reasons it's not included in the .NET framework
<^CareBear> bye bill_lance & kn4l :)
<^CareBear> later
<^CareBear> <- not going yet
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blic-23.mtp.power-net.net) left the channel
<^CareBear> brainless, that's what their supposed to do .. it
won't happen, but something good could possibly get out of
it all
<davi> ^CareBear: What is the primary reason?
<^CareBear> like the SEE, VRS, and WebServices
<brainless> ^CareBear: well then we need something more than
good programs. we need financial backup, sponsors,
advertisers and VC's ...
<^CareBear> davi, I don't remember exactly, but some of it was
speed
<davi> ok
<brainless> coz i firmly believe, to beat Microsoft we need to
market products the way M$ does. The present marketing
strategy just won't suffice the task
<^CareBear> they diden't feel it was that important for most
developers so to make it easier on themselfs they diden't
implement it, but they are considering it for a future
upgrade for C#
<^CareBear> brainless, the current "marketing" of DotGNU
doesn't even bring developers onboard as I have understood
which is basicly the first task of any project
<alexh> You can do MI with interfaces, supposedly.
<brainless> ^CareBear: i am speaking of the future. once we
complete DotGNU......what we need to do next.
<^CareBear> well.. interfaces doesn't inherent implementation
..
<^CareBear> brainless, DotGNU will never be finnished, at the
Microsoft .NET framework never will be
<brainless> but be4 that we need to convince people about the
enormous potential our project contains....
<^CareBear> did COM ever get finnished? .. nah, it was
upgraded and advanced multiple times, just as everything
<alexh> ^CareBear: no, but you can aggregate functionality
<brainless> okay i mean when DotGNU is ready to be used as a
base for other developers
<^CareBear> brainless, I think it's a to big task compete with
Microsoft's .NET vision, it's virtually impossible, but the
VRS, IDsec, SEE and WebServices are good ideas that should
be prioritized
<^CareBear> and the Pnet of course to run everything
<lstrcmpi> brainless: what do you intend of doing? i think
that if DotGNU will be part of linux in the way .NET is
becmoing part of the next line of windows, it we'll suceed.
that is using the "ms strategy" and still staying clean
without the need for (yak yak) money.
<brainless> ^CareBear: i need to update my knowledge on
that.....so can't comment
<brainless> lstrcmpi: u mean to say we shall be doing all this
free of cost?
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: the VRS, in my opinion, is a great idea,
and it should be done, asap, i wish to work on it, if
possible.
<lstrcmpi> brainless: ofcourse.
<^CareBear> brainless, DotGNU can't compete with Microsoft on
.NET Enterprise Servers, that's one of the points that is
virtually impossible to compete on
<brainless> lstrcmpi: then i am sorry to say we are adopting
some wrong path. history has umpteen examples of what
happens when potentially good SDK's and OS'es are offered
free of cost.
<brainless> ^CareBear: not direct competition to M$, but
atleast we are offering a substitute to M$ products
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, I showed mr bill_lance some resources on
the Terrarium game project my Microsoft, which is a real and
live p2p platform, it's something all VRS developers should
take a look at
<^CareBear> brainless, it's impossible
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: why? i don't see any reason why. the
good thing about Net/DotGNU is that it's about the internet.
hence it has alot in common with linux two greatest products
- Itself and Apache.
<brainless> ^CareBear: impossible in what context?
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: i think we should all look at the latest
researches on distirubted networks.
<^CareBear> impossible to create competing solutions like the
.NET Enterprise Servers without being IBM or Sun or Oracle
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear : i really don't think. it is possible.
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, yepp and Microsoft Research are doing
some great stuff on p2p stuff
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: how do you know that?
<brainless> ^CareBear: i think it's possible provided we get
the best of minds and the right management to handle
everything
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, show me a decent replacement for:
Commerce Server, Exchange Server, Mobile Information
Service, SharePoint Portal Server and BizTalk Server ...
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<^CareBear> and that's not all...
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<brainless> well ^CareBear i gtg now for dinner. Lets hope we
meet sometime soon :)
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<^CareBear> I don't think we will ever see free implementation of servers of
that
kind, it just won't happen .. it's like, suddenly should all SAP & Siebel
systems
be GPL'ed and free? ..
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: Building a Mobile Info Service can be done easily, an
Exchange Server is a nice mail server plus the BackOffice options, and all of
that we have in linux, maybe not in one product but it could be gathered
together.
<lstrcmpi> what is the SharePoint Portal Server?
<alexh> ^CareBear: no, but you can aggregate functionality
<^CareBear> document-management
<lstrcmpi> hmm - atleast there'll be an option.
<alexh> rw, sorry.....
<psiXaos> I have a problem with time zones. When is the meeting with respect to
now???
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<^CareBear> anyway, I think it's silly to try to compete on that level against
Microsoft, I don't think anyone is really earnt with it, I would much rather
see
SEE and VRS
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: as far as for now - that is what interest me most - the
framework [the CLR, writing one is a dreamer] and p2p. i guess you're too.
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<^CareBear> http://www.sap.com/ <-- SAP for instance have released their
database
under GPL I think, which is a huge-ass DB system which is in my opinion a
more
decent DB platform than MySQL ever will be, and I don't think SAP would ever
do
something similar like that if we all begun creating highly competing products
<^CareBear> there will always be open and free and always be closed and
commercial
software around, trying to compete is silly, trying to co-exists is the future
<alexh> Commercial != closed.
<^CareBear> alexh, I know but you get my idea
<alexh> I would be surprised if proprietary software was willing to co-exist
with
Free, though
<lstrcmpi> alexh: I would be suprised if any realy money came from the formula
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<alexh> SAP, for example, had a DB which was essentially Adabas. Applauding
them
for releasing it is to applaud nothing: they did very little to it.
<t3rmin4t0r> this looks the repeated until redundant "Free vs Closed" .
<lstrcmpi> t3r: more of "Commercial vs Open"
<t3rmin4t0r> I have seen a Commercial Open Software
<t3rmin4t0r> in DotGNU itself
<t3rmin4t0r> IIRc,PhpGroupware is commercially supported
<t3rmin4t0r> anyway, I've gotta go
* t3rmin4t0r is hungry ;)
<t3rmin4t0r> bye
<t3rmin4t0r> bbbl
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<bill_lance> Hello, all
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<eeyore> hello
<pepeillo> Hi
<twanger> hi
<bill_lance> Anyone know when the next scheduled fest is?
<eeyore> I'm not sure -- just got here, was wondering where the conversation
went
=)
<bill_lance> On the four hour cycle
<psiXaos> Where is that Meet-a-thlon ?
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<bill_lance> It is one this channel, but on a four hour cycle
<psiXaos> And now is a break?
<nymia> maybe this is a dumb question, how is mono doing compared with dotGNU?
<bill_lance> HUmm let me see It started at 10AM GMT in four hour cycles
after
that. Where would that put it now?
<pepeillo> A question: Is there any project to implement XForms o another
similar
technology for graph interface?
<psiXaos> nymia: mono is a subset of dotGNU.
<bill_lance> nymia: Not dumb at all. The Mono project overlaps with the PNet
project
<eeyore> psiXaos: mono is a totally separate project
<eeyore> mono is a Ximian project
<psiXaos> nymia: I know. I said in content
<eeyore> ah -- sorry
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<^CareBear> absurd .. hehe .. you see what I mean, please quit
using .NET as a whole .. it's to hard to understand it
<absurd> oh.
<absurd> haha. ya
<absurd> lol. i thought those were codenames for MSs new OS or
something =]
<^CareBear> both freestyle and mira technologies will be
release in the upcoming XP SP1
<absurd> so a game is built into the .NET system?
<^CareBear> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ehome/default.asp
<absurd> :)
<absurd> ugh. I wont be getting that. why did you mention it?
<^CareBear> freestyle = "interface" ontop of Windows XP
<absurd> good thing i use osX...
<^CareBear> mira = WindowsCE devices using wireless networking
& remote desktop features
<absurd> ugh you cant be serious
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: OS X ?, you are *really* needed for DotGNU
<absurd> i know
<tp> remote desktop features over wireless mediums ? sounds
awful
<absurd> thats partially why i joined
<^CareBear> mira is pretty neat, but I don't think I'll waste
bucks on any mira device until version 2
<t3rmin4t0r> we're really lacking anything outside GNU
<t3rmin4t0r> thanx
<absurd> im a java developer specifically because I use osX
and GNU/linux
<^CareBear> tp, it's not the fastest technology right now
yepp, but the second version will be better when new
wireless techs are more widely available
<absurd> although most C/++ apps port very easily to osx.
sometimes, you just need to recompile
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: even more wonderful as I'll be working on
JVM support for DotGNU
<absurd> wow
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: GNU Darwin ?
<tp> ^CareBear, not only not the fastest... what do you do if
transmission is interrupted (e.g. interference) ?
<absurd> hmm? thats osX
<absurd> but no, not GNU/darwin. i should try that on an i386
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<^CareBear> tp, maybe go read some details on it?
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<absurd> i guess osX IS GNU/darwin isnt it? it used the GNU
dev tools such as gcc and gmake
<absurd> uses*
<t3rmin4t0r> anyway Portable.NET already disassembles .class
files
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<^CareBear> Darwin is BSD based
<absurd> ya
<t3rmin4t0r> (Exceptions,interfaces,...)
<absurd> and I have X-window running on my mac
<^CareBear> and BSD is the most used desktop OS behind
Windows, it's more widely used than Linux on the desktop :)
<absurd> along with GTK+ and GIMP
<t3rmin4t0r> ^CareBear: XP uses BSD networking code , give it
an nmap run ;)
<absurd> it was all quickly ported. im very happy.
<absurd> HAH
<absurd> i really dont like winXP. I tried the beta. ugh.
<^CareBear> used XP since beta. love it :)
<nb> Everyone: I really liked one thing that ^CareBear said a
while back.
<^CareBear> and that's? :)
<t3rmin4t0r> Heavy load, I can't afford a big box
<nb> We need to move from the huge vision to a exactly-specifie
d set of goals...
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, Pastry looks awesome and phreaking
advanced.. :)
<psiXaos> yeah that was what I liked also... the only one
<^CareBear> correct :)
<absurd> well, I guess Im spoiled. XP looks about 1/4 as good
as OS X
<nb> for a useable web services framework that we can succeed
in putting together in reasonable time.
<^CareBear> absurd, nothing looks as good as OS X :)
<absurd> and MS made IE and Office about twice as good on Mac
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<absurd> they are mildly stable and feature rich
<nb> By this I don't mean giving up the huge vision.
<^CareBear> Office v.X looks AWESOME .. wish it worked on XP :)
<absurd> LOL
<absurd> see? everyone, come and switch to OS X
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<^CareBear> it really kicks Office XP ;)
<nb> But we need short term goals that we can reach reasonably
quickly
<absurd> go out and buy a G4 or new iMAC
<t3rmin4t0r> nb: I think that we need to *split* the vision
<nb> and that result in a system that is useful for something.
<t3rmin4t0r> and hand each one a subset
<absurd> it needs broken down into parts
<^CareBear> nb, as most project managers knows, a project
should never be longer than 3 months .. if possibly shorter
<absurd> look at GNU/linux. First the tools were, made, then
kernel, etc.
<nymia> good one, start with tools first.
<^CareBear> nb, that doesn't mean the WHOLE project should be
less than 3 months .. but you get my drift
<absurd> uhuh. my current project is exactly 3 months long
<absurd> but itll take about 6 months ofcourse
<nb> ^CareBear: unfortunately we don't have many full-time
hackers yet.
<^CareBear> nymia, absurd, nb, the tools should be first
priority right, there are currently alot of stuff you can
use to build those tools upon
<t3rmin4t0r> yes, we are building the tools ie Compiler,Runtime
,Debugger
<absurd> i gotta get it done in a month =/
<^CareBear> you have all the XML stuff already done
<psiXaos> I think if GNU/Linux is to survive, every developer
must put herself into a diet. But I see a lot of XPish
people here. With tem GNU/Linux will never succeed enough...
<absurd> a diet?
<t3rmin4t0r> But I think fresh ideas come from all directions
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: strictly on Free Software ;)
<absurd> oh. I already do that
<psiXaos> a diet by protesting .NET by not using XP and word
and even Mac etc...
<nymia> not possible, too many choices around.
<t3rmin4t0r> I'll choose what I accept...but let everyone talk
<tp> psiXaos, not using word is diet ?
<absurd> the only thing thats not free that im using, is
apples aqua inteface, and Internet Explorer on mac. because
there are NO free alternatives
<^CareBear> dotGNU should focus on VRS, and WebServices hosted
on the VRS .. which needs a good framework to run on (pnet)
<nymia> unless choice is taken away.
<nymia> pnet is critical to dotGNU.
<nb> ^CareBear: Sounds reasonable.
<absurd> yup
<t3rmin4t0r> VRS is the fileserver of DEE
<psiXaos> tp: yes. I mean by choosing sometimes what is not
the best but what is with the vision..
<t3rmin4t0r> but the SEE work needs to be tackled seriously
<nb> t3rmin4t0r: Actually VRS is a DEE replacement.
<^CareBear> SEE is something that should be implemented in pnet
<nymia> it is nice to see pnet usable now.
<absurd> i was wondering about the SEE. how is it going?
<t3rmin4t0r> the more time Pnet evolves alone, the more
difficult SEE becomes
<^CareBear> just as CAS is implemented in the .net framework
<bill_lance> VRS provides a means of projecting exposed
services from our owqn existing machines.
<nb> absurd: There's a little code from David Sugar, but it's
not been worked on in a long time.
<^CareBear> right bill_lance
<absurd> can anyone draw a chart of how each service connects?
Wee really need a virtual white board
<nb> SEE needs someone to either revive it or start over.
<absurd> lemme go download a java white board....just a sec
<^CareBear> doesn't pnet implemented some sort of CAS ( Code
Access Security )
<t3rmin4t0r> nb: aah ! another horse race (remember Auth ?)
<t3rmin4t0r> I think the list would be a better place for this
stuff
<bill_lance> We still have to deal with http services as well,
thought .. another part of the ambiguity of 'Webservices'
<nb> t3rmin4t0r: In a way yes...
<nb> however DEE and VRS address different needs.
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<nb> DEE meets the needs of ASPs and their clients
<^CareBear> nb, doesn't pnet implemented DEE?
<t3rmin4t0r> x-virge: are you there ?
<nb> VRS meets the needs of everyone else.
<bill_lance> SEE might work in both, however
<^CareBear> hm...
<x-virge> t3rmin4t0r: yeah
<absurd> here we go! a whiteboard for IRC users. on FS
<absurd> SF*
<nb> bill_lance: yes
<t3rmin4t0r> DEE is a service ring (VRS is an *uncontrolled* ring)
<^CareBear> I'm having a hard time figuring out the logic of the way some of
the
DotGNU stuff is done .. hehe
<absurd> we need it drawn out. seriously. can someone post an explaination on
dotgnu.org?
<t3rmin4t0r> x-virge: what do you have to say about async RPC ?
<nb> ^CareBear: That's probably because it's not done yet :-)
<bill_lance> t3rmin4tOr: Uncntrolled? How do you mean?
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<t3rmin4t0r> nb: remember the list discuss ? about asynx soap
<^CareBear> nb, it should start out easy and get into details later .. not
creating
total chaos and then structure it .. :)
<x-virge> t3rmin4t0r: what is there to say about it? :) I'm here to answer
jabber
questions, not spout off on RPC :)
<t3rmin4t0r> hi S11001001
<absurd> oooh. someone from jabber is here?
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: Logic? You got to be kidding. :)
<x-virge> yes
<S11001001> hello Daniel, Norbert, Gopal.V
<absurd> why isnt this chattathon on jabber?
<absurd> then we could have a friggin whiteboard!
<nb> S11001001: Hi :-)
<t3rmin4t0r> Jabber is IMHO the only practical way of Async RPC
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<absurd> stop using acronyms! what is RPC?
<x-virge> absurd: I'll be around the whole weekend, anyone involved in this is
free
to email or jabber me at: address@hidden -- I'll try to help answer any
questions I can, but remember, I'm from the IM camp, not the RPC camp, so I
don't
know everything ;)
<nb> sorry ... family duties again...
<S11001001> absurd: remote process communication
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: Remoter Procedural Calls
<^CareBear> bill_lance, please tell me why SEE is a seperate thing from PNET?
<S11001001> t3rmin4t0r: oops :(
<nb> I'll be back in an hour or two. *wave*
<t3rmin4t0r> s/Remoter/Remote
<absurd> LOL
*** nb has quit IRC ("nb has no reason")
<absurd> so no one knows what it stands for?
<x-virge> t3rmin4t0r: I don't know of a better way, so I'd have to agree with
you
on that ;)
<tp> absurd, it's "remote procedure calls" nothing else
<x-virge> tp's right
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<absurd> ok. thank you. and what does it do/what is it used for?
<S11001001> t3rmin4t0r: _scribe_?
<t3rmin4t0r> the suggestions were reply-by-email stuff ;)
<x-virge> t3rmin4t0r: soon you'll be able to store-forward RPC's over jabber
(like
email)
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<tp> absurd, send call to server, server executes procedure, results are sent
back
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: I believe that PNet has focused on the compile tools
and
lib so far. SEE is a delivery issue
<^CareBear> brb
<t3rmin4t0r> S11001001: don't know where the logs are
<tp> absurd, basically webservices are rpcs
<x-virge> t3rmin4t0r: and you can choose to store-forward or not... so if a
component is online, you can make the call instantly. if it's offline, you
can
choose if you want it to do its thing when it comes on or not
<t3rmin4t0r> on FreeDevelopers.net
<absurd> ahh. i see
<t3rmin4t0r> somewhere
<bill_lance> brb
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<absurd> but you dont have to look at the data going between
the server/client so it doesnt really matter what it looks
like
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: also transmission times
<fitzix> tp: Precisely - so, why couldn't "RDF-RPC" usage make
something a webservice?
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<absurd> RDF?
<^CareBear> what about encryption of the data going from the
clients?
<absurd> ssh
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: Resource Document Format
<alexh> fitzix: it could, if someone designed it. No-one has.
Alternatives at the moment consist of SOAP, XML-RPC, etc..
<fitzix> http://www.w3.org/RDF/
<absurd> interesting. ive never heard of it =/
<tp> fitzix, you're right, i myself don't think xml is an
optimal format, too
<lstrcmpi> should i subscribe for the digest or..hmmm..not?
<S11001001> ok, I would like to point out that in the end, it
doesn't matter whether or not something is in XML, or runs
over HTTP, just as long as it works as well or better...I
think this is what led us to the idea of Jabber being a IPC
system. The point is we are looking for something that works
well, not trying to limit ourselves to some technical
specification like XML or HTTP.
<^CareBear> absurd, will all communcation in VRS use ssh?...
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: The digest is confusing when there are
lots of mails
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<absurd> i dont know
<t3rmin4t0r> the "absurd," looks funny !
<fitzix> alexh: Then, that's great. :) -- but the current
"accepted definition of webservices" ties it directly to
XML-RPC/SOAP standards. I think that this is a conceptual
oversight :)
<absurd> i would think so but based on the dotGNU site, no one
has planeed outthe encryption scheme
<S11001001> lstrcmpi: I click the little threading button in
my filter folder, and that works for me
<lstrcmpi> t3r: and how many emails do i get a day? i want to
be able to read most of them..
<tp> ^CareBear, you mean ssl ? ssh is a shell
<absurd> i meant ssl
<absurd> oops. LOL
<^CareBear> tp, I know, I just thought it was weird and asked
him
* artimus is back (gone 00:11:11)
<alexh> fitzix: it's not an oversight; it's a standardisation.
Standards are useless if everyone's using different ones.
<absurd> ive been using ssh and sftp waay to much lately
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: are you on GNU ?
<^CareBear> absurd, it won't use ssl even?
<lstrcmpi> S11001001: what do you mean? i use web-mail.
<t3rmin4t0r> oh !
<fitzix> alexh: Yes, but that's like saying that all networks
must be ethernet
<alexh> fitzix: no, it's saying 'everything that wants to
connect to my ethernet network needs to be ethernet'
<fitzix> alexh: we understand networks conceptually -- and we
define them to have attributes
<absurd> ^CareBear: I dont know! no one has gotten that far
yet. I would think that everything would use SSL. but it
says on the site that they need some cryptographers to plan
it out
<^CareBear> http://www.w3.org/Encryption/2001/ <- haven't
looked much on this even though I should have
<alexh> fitzix: we also implement them :)
<t3rmin4t0r> getting back to XML -- I thought everybody used
it becuase , everybody agreed upon it ?
<^CareBear> absurd, going SSL is a bad idea
<absurd> ok
<^CareBear> it has to use regular HTTP
<absurd> im not a cypher so I dont know much about encryption
techniques
<t3rmin4t0r> How else do you propose Webservices ?
<alexh> t3rmin4t0r: everyone uses it because you can use a
standard parser, I think :)
<fitzix> alexh: Yes, we do -- but that's another matter. :)
<absurd> Thats why I use XML!
<^CareBear> an p2p platform using anything other than HTTP &
TCP port 80 doesn't have a right to be of public nature :)
<absurd> simply because I can easily turn it into a DOM tree.
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: is the number of nodes in Pastry
constant?
<t3rmin4t0r> alexh: exactly, I've spent 12 sleepless days
parsing the binary of a Java .class file into a tree
<tp> ^CareBear, what's wrong with https (port 443) ?
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, I haven't got time to read on it yet,
and all the p2p knowledge I got is pretty basic and it's
mostly from the Terrarium project, which really got me to
understand the whole p2p idea of hosting code on different
peers
<absurd> haha. an XML dom took me about a week to do. Now i
feel slow :(
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: I don't use it in Java
<absurd> but it was my first time
<S11001001> ^CareBear: you have to acknowledge the limits of
HTTP and the HTML interface.
<^CareBear> tp, you can't force the users to open incoming
data on port 443
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: I'll have to send my email to the
Rice,TX university dude then. ok. thanks.
<lstrcmpi> t3r: why were you doing that?
<^CareBear> S11001001, what does HTML have to do with any of
this?
<tp> ^CareBear, if you force them to open 80 (dangerous enough
on windows) why not 443 ?
<t3rmin4t0r> http://dotgnu.org/pnetlib-status/status2html.py
it uses 3 lines to parse XML into a Dom
<absurd> java is the same way
<absurd> but first I had to learn what a DOM was =/
<^CareBear> tp, the VRS has to run on using HTTP & port 80, or
else it won't have a chance in my view
<t3rmin4t0r> ^CareBear: only SSL servers need to open 443
<bill_lance> you should read http://www.ebuilt.com/fielding/pub
s/dissertation/top.htm
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, but the whole idea with VRS is that
every peer is a server
<absurd> argh. thats what C# looks like?
<lstrcmpi> t3r: you converted a java class into xml?
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: that's python !
<absurd> oh good
<bill_lance> and http://conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi/FrontPag
e before you decide on the limits of http
<absurd> thank god
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: no, I had to read it to dissasemble it
<bill_lance> http://www.ebuilt.com/fielding/pubs/dissertation/t
op.htm
<absurd> HTTP 1.0 is pretty limiting
<lstrcmpi> t3r: you dissasembled it? huh?!
<absurd> btw, i still need to impliment the rest of HTTP1.0 on
my proxy =/
<absurd> I need to impliment the POST method badly
<t3rmin4t0r> try http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/jilc
<tp> absurd, there's a version 1.1
<absurd> I know
<absurd> but not everthing is compatable yet
<absurd> i was looking at the specs and its waay more powerful
<tp> absurd, and never will ne, same with 1.0
<absurd> heh. yup. I know my proxy will probably not even be
totally 1.0 compatable
<absurd> unless I can get someone to write it for me
<^CareBear> absurd, I don't know who's working on DotGNU or
not in here, but the VRS is supposed to use HTTP & PORT 80
right? ..
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<absurd> I have no idea, carebear
<t3rmin4t0r> ^CareBear: No need for port 80
<absurd> i dont know much about the VRS
<absurd> i dont even understand what it is for
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, ?
<t3rmin4t0r> I prefer a port above 1024 for use in a multi
user environ
<^CareBear> Virtual Remote Server
<t3rmin4t0r> in GNU only root can run a port below 1024
<absurd> i know that much!
<tp> t3rmin4tor, good point
<absurd> yup. notice how proxies run at port 8080...
<t3rmin4t0r> Also I use GNUtella which uses HTTP/Is P2P and
runs in 6446
<absurd> ofcourse, mine is totally customizable..
<bill_lance> ^Carebear Yes, the VRS will use 80. We may alkso
use anoher for interCluster communication .. not sure yet
<^CareBear> http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/VRS/
<absurd> can someone explain VRS?
<bill_lance> absurd: http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/VRS/index
.html
<lstrcmpi> bill_lance: look here, this is something similiar
to what i'm talking about; http://research.microsoft.com/sn/f
arsite/overview.htm
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: this is *absurd* (ROTFLAMO)
<absurd> OMG, I was trying to find something that does what
VRS does about 2 months ago!
<alexh> tres amusant, t3rmin4t0r
<bill_lance> 1strcmpi I know of them, thanks :)
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, it was a bad idea showing you an
microsoft URL .. I guess you've sweat the whole Research
site byt now? : )
<^CareBear> sweapt
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: farsite was discussed on the list
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: i'm reading like a mad man... =)
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, what about Pastry? http://research.mic
rosoft.com/~antr/Pastry/
<lstrcmpi> t3r: that is cool. i've subscribed to the vrs list
this minute.
<absurd> Me and my friend want to create a single webserver
between our remote servers. We wanted some redundancy and a
sharing of bandwidth. VRS might have been useful
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: The Echelon filter has already
started, the the dog is bringint the tinfoil!
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, have Terrarium been discussed on the
list?
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: this was on the address@hidden
list
<lstrcmpi> damn i'm tired of reading - i want to code some.
<absurd> you can code with me...
<lstrcmpi> t3r: why?
<absurd> i need some help
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<lstrcmpi> you're coding what, absurd?
<lstrcmpi> i got me a scheme test tomorrow. fun. =)
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, have it?
<absurd> my internet filter. I am currently coding a part that
calculates whether a certain set of potential keyphrases are
in the document
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<absurd> its really really mind numbing
<lstrcmpi> hello nb.
<absurd> i have to write some crazy combinitorial algorithms
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: that is the list of *all* developers
<S11001001> OK, I would like your attention for just one second. I apologise
for
interrupting chatting, but this will be fun ;)
* absurd grumbles
<lstrcmpi> absurd <--- a big brother [?] =)
<^CareBear> absurd, I'm working on a pretty neat Web-Worms that scans the whole
net
if you don't stop it :) it's going to be used as an engine for a
link-check-thing
<absurd> LOL I just want an opensource filter
<S11001001> now that nb is back, great start! Norbert Bollow, tell us a little
about yourself ;)
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, have Terrarium been discussed in the list?
<nb> What do you want to hear? ;-)
<t3rmin4t0r> ^CareBear: no , wait a minute while the intro finishes
<absurd> i figure, filtering sucks right? libraries buy filters from companies.
They pay loads of money per year and they cannot control what it filters out.
Mine is totally customizable and is low cost
<S11001001> nb: what you do in relation to the project, where you are,
position, etc
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* t3rmin4t0r think I know nb's name ;)
<nb> Well, I'm 34yrs old, living in Swizterland with wife and 5 kids...
<tp> 5 kids, gratulation
<lstrcmpi> absurd: i remember the guy who developed carnivore saying back when
it
was only scratch - "I just want a filter". =)
<absurd> whats with all these two letter nicks?
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r?...
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<tp> ^CareBear, you mean ssl ? ssh is a shell
<absurd> i meant ssl
<absurd> oops. LOL
<^CareBear> tp, I know, I just thought it was weird and asked
him
* artimus is back (gone 00:11:11)
<alexh> fitzix: it's not an oversight; it's a standardisation.
Standards are useless if everyone's using different ones.
<absurd> ive been using ssh and sftp waay to much lately
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: are you on GNU ?
<^CareBear> absurd, it won't use ssl even?
<lstrcmpi> S11001001: what do you mean? i use web-mail.
<t3rmin4t0r> oh !
<fitzix> alexh: Yes, but that's like saying that all networks
must be ethernet
<alexh> fitzix: no, it's saying 'everything that wants to
connect to my ethernet network needs to be ethernet'
<fitzix> alexh: we understand networks conceptually -- and we
define them to have attributes
<absurd> ^CareBear: I dont know! no one has gotten that far
yet. I would think that everything would use SSL. but it
says on the site that they need some cryptographers to plan
it out
<^CareBear> http://www.w3.org/Encryption/2001/ <- haven't
looked much on this even though I should have
<alexh> fitzix: we also implement them :)
<t3rmin4t0r> getting back to XML -- I thought everybody used
it becuase , everybody agreed upon it ?
<^CareBear> absurd, going SSL is a bad idea
<absurd> ok
<^CareBear> it has to use regular HTTP
<absurd> im not a cypher so I dont know much about encryption
techniques
<t3rmin4t0r> How else do you propose Webservices ?
<alexh> t3rmin4t0r: everyone uses it because you can use a
standard parser, I think :)
<fitzix> alexh: Yes, we do -- but that's another matter. :)
<absurd> Thats why I use XML!
<^CareBear> an p2p platform using anything other than HTTP &
TCP port 80 doesn't have a right to be of public nature :)
<absurd> simply because I can easily turn it into a DOM tree.
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: is the number of nodes in Pastry
constant?
<t3rmin4t0r> alexh: exactly, I've spent 12 sleepless days
parsing the binary of a Java .class file into a tree
<tp> ^CareBear, what's wrong with https (port 443) ?
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, I haven't got time to read on it yet,
and all the p2p knowledge I got is pretty basic and it's
mostly from the Terrarium project, which really got me to
understand the whole p2p idea of hosting code on different
peers
<absurd> haha. an XML dom took me about a week to do. Now i
feel slow :(
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: I don't use it in Java
<absurd> but it was my first time
<S11001001> ^CareBear: you have to acknowledge the limits of
HTTP and the HTML interface.
<^CareBear> tp, you can't force the users to open incoming
data on port 443
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: I'll have to send my email to the
Rice,TX university dude then. ok. thanks.
<lstrcmpi> t3r: why were you doing that?
<^CareBear> S11001001, what does HTML have to do with any of
this?
<tp> ^CareBear, if you force them to open 80 (dangerous enough
on windows) why not 443 ?
<t3rmin4t0r> http://dotgnu.org/pnetlib-status/status2html.py
it uses 3 lines to parse XML into a Dom
<absurd> java is the same way
<absurd> but first I had to learn what a DOM was =/
<^CareBear> tp, the VRS has to run on using HTTP & port 80, or
else it won't have a chance in my view
<t3rmin4t0r> ^CareBear: only SSL servers need to open 443
<bill_lance> you should read http://www.ebuilt.com/fielding/pub
s/dissertation/top.htm
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, but the whole idea with VRS is that
every peer is a server
<absurd> argh. thats what C# looks like?
<lstrcmpi> t3r: you converted a java class into xml?
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: that's python !
<absurd> oh good
<bill_lance> and http://conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi/FrontPag
e before you decide on the limits of http
<absurd> thank god
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: no, I had to read it to dissasemble it
<bill_lance> http://www.ebuilt.com/fielding/pubs/dissertation/t
op.htm
<absurd> HTTP 1.0 is pretty limiting
<lstrcmpi> t3r: you dissasembled it? huh?!
<absurd> btw, i still need to impliment the rest of HTTP1.0 on
my proxy =/
<absurd> I need to impliment the POST method badly
<t3rmin4t0r> try http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/jilc
<tp> absurd, there's a version 1.1
<absurd> I know
<absurd> but not everthing is compatable yet
<absurd> i was looking at the specs and its waay more powerful
<tp> absurd, and never will ne, same with 1.0
<absurd> heh. yup. I know my proxy will probably not even be
totally 1.0 compatable
<absurd> unless I can get someone to write it for me
<^CareBear> absurd, I don't know who's working on DotGNU or
not in here, but the VRS is supposed to use HTTP & PORT 80
right? ..
-vinge.openprojects.net:#dotgnu- psiXaos (address@hidden
t.net.tr) joined the channel
<absurd> I have no idea, carebear
<t3rmin4t0r> ^CareBear: No need for port 80
<absurd> i dont know much about the VRS
<absurd> i dont even understand what it is for
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, ?
<t3rmin4t0r> I prefer a port above 1024 for use in a multi
user environ
<^CareBear> Virtual Remote Server
<t3rmin4t0r> in GNU only root can run a port below 1024
<absurd> i know that much!
<tp> t3rmin4tor, good point
<absurd> yup. notice how proxies run at port 8080...
<t3rmin4t0r> Also I use GNUtella which uses HTTP/Is P2P and
runs in 6446
<absurd> ofcourse, mine is totally customizable..
<bill_lance> ^Carebear Yes, the VRS will use 80. We may alkso
use anoher for interCluster communication .. not sure yet
<^CareBear> http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/VRS/
<absurd> can someone explain VRS?
<bill_lance> absurd: http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/VRS/index
.html
<lstrcmpi> bill_lance: look here, this is something similiar
to what i'm talking about; http://research.microsoft.com/sn/f
arsite/overview.htm
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: this is *absurd* (ROTFLAMO)
<absurd> OMG, I was trying to find something that does what
VRS does about 2 months ago!
<alexh> tres amusant, t3rmin4t0r
<bill_lance> 1strcmpi I know of them, thanks :)
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, it was a bad idea showing you an
microsoft URL .. I guess you've sweat the whole Research
site byt now? : )
<^CareBear> sweapt
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: farsite was discussed on the list
<lstrcmpi> ^CareBear: i'm reading like a mad man... =)
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, what about Pastry? http://research.mic
rosoft.com/~antr/Pastry/
<lstrcmpi> t3r: that is cool. i've subscribed to the vrs list
this minute.
<absurd> Me and my friend want to create a single webserver
between our remote servers. We wanted some redundancy and a
sharing of bandwidth. VRS might have been useful
<bill_lance> ^CareBear: The Echelon filter has already
started, the the dog is bringint the tinfoil!
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, have Terrarium been discussed on the
list?
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: this was on the address@hidden
list
<lstrcmpi> damn i'm tired of reading - i want to code some.
<absurd> you can code with me...
<lstrcmpi> t3r: why?
<absurd> i need some help
-vinge.openprojects.net:#dotgnu- chillywilly (address@hidden
.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined the channel
<lstrcmpi> you're coding what, absurd?
<lstrcmpi> i got me a scheme test tomorrow. fun. =)
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, have it?
<absurd> my internet filter. I am currently coding a part that
calculates whether a certain set of potential keyphrases are
in the document
-vinge.openprojects.net:#dotgnu- nb (address@hidden
p-67.freesurf.ch) joined the channel
<absurd> its really really mind numbing
<lstrcmpi> hello nb.
<absurd> i have to write some crazy combinitorial algorithms
<t3rmin4t0r> lstrcmpi: that is the list of *all* developers
<S11001001> OK, I would like your attention for just one
second. I apologise for interrupting chatting, but this will
be fun ;)
* absurd grumbles
<lstrcmpi> absurd <--- a big brother [?] =)
<^CareBear> absurd, I'm working on a pretty neat Web-Worms
that scans the whole net if you don't stop it :) it's
going to be used as an engine for a link-check-thing
<absurd> LOL I just want an opensource filter
<S11001001> now that nb is back, great start! Norbert Bollow,
tell us a little about yourself ;)
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r, have Terrarium been discussed in the
list?
<nb> What do you want to hear? ;-)
<t3rmin4t0r> ^CareBear: no , wait a minute while the intro
finishes
<absurd> i figure, filtering sucks right? libraries buy filters from companies.
They pay loads of money per year and they cannot control what it filters out.
Mine is totally customizable and is low cost
<S11001001> nb: what you do in relation to the project, where you are,
position, etc
-dircproxy:#dotgnu- You connected
* t3rmin4t0r think I know nb's name ;)
<nb> Well, I'm 34yrs old, living in Swizterland with wife and 5 kids...
<tp> 5 kids, gratulation
<lstrcmpi> absurd: i remember the guy who developed carnivore saying back when
it
was only scratch - "I just want a filter". =)
<absurd> whats with all these two letter nicks?
<^CareBear> t3rmin4t0r?...
<nb> self-employed, consulting on electronic mailing lists (e.g. GNU Mailman)
and
related things...
<absurd> carnivore?
<t3rmin4t0r> yes ?
<absurd> what is that?
<nb> absurd: it's not more absurd than your nick :-)
<absurd> lol
<t3rmin4t0r> absurd: wait while norbet introduces himself !
<absurd> fine. ill change nick to the full blown thing
-vinge.openprojects.net:#dotgnu- nrml (address@hidden) joined
the channel
<lstrcmpi> carnivore - the FBI ultra-spying tool.
<nb> anyway...
<t3rmin4t0r> fire away Norbert
<fitzix> hey there Norbert
<fitzix> good to see you
<psiXaos> carnivore is also legal
<nb> back in June 2001 when Enzo brought up the idea of a "dotgnu" project...
*** Topic is '<S11001001:#dotgnu> things are heating up on [bizplan] :)'
*** Set by ChanServ on Wed Mar 06 18:53:11
<nb> Barry!!!
<lstrcmpi> yes, so will be absurd's project.
<sbp> hey fitzix
<fitzix> :)
<nb> I was among the first to get convinced that this is an important thing...
<t3rmin4t0r> BWT where is myrridian ?
<fitzix> ahh -- June, the good days...
<absurd> ill change my nick
*** absurd is now known as absurdhero
<nb> t3rmin4t0r: in Australia.
<fitzix> t3rmin4t0r: He's been VERY VERY busy lately
<psiXaos> absurdhero: target me. detect me! I am an 31337 h4x0r! I cracked 666
hosts!....eheh
<absurdhero> is that better?
<^CareBear> lstrcmpi, thanks for the URL, never read on this before .. good
reading
=) (http://research.microsoft.com/sn/farsite/faq.htm)
<fitzix> hey sbp -- how are ya? -- lots of people in the channel today, eh?
<absurdhero> damn it. im not a censorship nut. I am anti-censorship infact. ive
written a couple essays on it
<nb> So I though I'll help him get this project started
<absurdhero> but i love coding AI stuff. And well, censorship software requires
AI
<sbp> fitzix: heh, fine thanks. Overwhelmed by the people! the most you've ever
had, surely
<t3rmin4t0r> ok, continue norbert
<tp> who is enzo ?
<nb> Barry aka Fitzix joined soon too.
<psiXaos> absurdhero: what kind of AI?
<absurdhero> its the one and only FREE Censorship program heh
<nb> tp: his nick is myrddian
<absurdhero> well, NLP
<fitzix> sbp: Yep
<nb> the one who suggested the original idea and name for this project
<t3rmin4t0r> Norbert -- was there from the beginning
<fitzix> He started the mailing lists
<fitzix> the web site...
<nb> So Enzo, Barry and I formed the original "coreteam".
<psiXaos> absurdhero: chatting bots :)
<absurdhero> I took the same approach the Alice bot took
<t3rmin4t0r> and is a member of DotGNU Steering Commitee
<fitzix> This IRC channel was originally founded by myself... damn, that was a
long
time ago
<nb> Since the original discussions happened on the FreeDevelopers mailing
list...
<S11001001> Norbert also runs the current website
* t3rmin4t0r it's going to be fun reading irclogs
<psiXaos> absurdhero: A year ago I have merged darkbot with ALICE and used it
on
linux channel it was fun
<absurdhero> hehe. ill submit them to the mailing list
<fitzix> brb - one sec
<nb> and none of us had direct contacts to GNU it started out as a
FreeDeveloeprs
project.
<absurdhero> my filter uses a butt-load of XML definitions just like Alice
<sbp> wow, "Founder: ajmitch; Registered: 17 weeks 6 days (0h 40m 16s) ago"
according to chanserv. You really should have registered it earlier!
<t3rmin4t0r> where in heaven or hell is ajmitch
<t3rmin4t0r> he's supposed to know where the irclogs are
<t3rmin4t0r> anyway, continue Norbert
<nb> For some reason, Tony Stanco, the man behind FreeDevelopers, wanted to
make
David Sugar leader of the DotGNU project.
<nb> David Sugar is a great guy...
<absurdhero> anyone who wants to help me with my filtering project, goto
sf.net/projects/jsense
<nb> not at all the person to come in and take control...
<nb> but a great person to have on the team.
<absurdhero> i would like to make it a dotGNU service if it is appropriate but
we
will see
<nb> So then there were four.
*** nrml has quit IRC ("Running on RealityX IRC 2.0.0")
<nb> Then we did a press release...
<^CareBear> I want a distributed filesystem at our office :)
<nb> and Rhys showed up...
<absurdhero> the whole FreDevelopers.net thing looks kinda weird to me
* t3rmin4t0r the four saints of DotGNU
<fitzix> back
*** BadKarma has joined #dotgnu
<^CareBear> to wrap this up, who was the four saints t3rmin4t0r ? :)
<fitzix> sbp: I let it lapse and Ajmitch picked up the subscription -- I was
busy
at the time
<nb> then it was decided to merge DotGNU (which was really mostly vaporware at
the
time) and Rhys' Portable.NET.
<t3rmin4t0r> with Rhys ("The 5000 lines a week") Weatherly the project took off
<t3rmin4t0r> ^CareBear: Norbert,Enzo,Barry, & David
<psiXaos> what is rhys nick
<S11001001> psiXaos: rhys
<t3rmin4t0r> it's rhysw
<S11001001> t3rmin4t0r: oh
<psiXaos> tnx
<sbp> fitzix: yeah. My logs go back to (only) Tue Jul 17 21:34:31 2001, and the
first line from a .GNU guy is you saying, "hey dude" to myrridian :-)
<t3rmin4t0r> norbert: you'r ceu
<t3rmin4t0r> sbp: you have logs ? (???????)
<fitzix> sbp: hehe - would that be from me? :)
<nb> ceu ??? what's that?
<sbp> yep
<t3rmin4t0r> ahem cue ;)
<t3rmin4t0r> sbp: today's too ?
<sbp> I dunno... my logs have been screwy lately. All of the old logs are fine,
but
I doubt that any of the logs from like the past month will be of any use
<S11001001> Gopal.V, tell us about yourself
<t3rmin4t0r> I'm a CS student in India, Age 20
<absurdhero> there are a lot of CS students there. arent there?
<t3rmin4t0r> I was introduced to FreeDevelopers.NET by one of my seniors Arun.M
<fitzix> Currently, the DotGNU Steering Committee (Coreteam) is made up of nb,
David, Enzo-Adrian, Rhys, Bradley Kunn, Arun, and myself
* tp is not cs student, but ee
<t3rmin4t0r> I lurked in DotGNU for 3 months
<absurdhero> An indian software engineeer emailed me about being interested in
my
project
<t3rmin4t0r> Aug-Oct
<kefka> hmm.. what happened to newsforge...
<absurdhero> whats wrong?
<t3rmin4t0r> In november , Rhys asked for a small program
<kefka> totally new..
<t3rmin4t0r> called ildiff -- simple but lots of data structure
<t3rmin4t0r> I did it and became a contributer
<t3rmin4t0r> being sort of a dreamer , I had ideas and put them in words
* t3rmin4t0r thinks the mailing list will prove that
<t3rmin4t0r> In the end I ended up working on Portable.NET
<t3rmin4t0r> for two reasons -- I prefer C
<t3rmin4t0r> and that I've work on the JVM instructions before
<t3rmin4t0r> So here I am a DotGNU Portable.NET developer
<nb> after all chances are that coreteam can grow significantly over the next
couple of months.
<t3rmin4t0r> also this meet was originally my idea
<nb> oops...
<t3rmin4t0r> I sort of wanted people to know about this
<S11001001> t3rmin4t0r: yeah, I found DG by pure luck
<nb> that was meant to be said privately...
<nb> but anyway... now that it's leaked out...
<nb> chances are that more people will be iunvited to join the coreteam list...
<psiXaos> nb: what was private
<absurdhero> i found DG because of the OSDN daily digest
<absurdhero> and i was instantly captivated
<nb> "after all chances are that coreteam can grow significantly over the
<nb> next couple of months."
<absurdhero> so for the past 2 days, ive been reading and reading and reading
about
dotGNU, etc
<t3rmin4t0r> Thanks to fitzix here , Grant Gross put in on OSDN
<absurdhero> and it still excites me
<FrePort> t3r: I frankly forget how I got from nowhere to FD to DotGNU. I think
it
was a sublime teleporter of the Doug Adams variety.
<fitzix> :)
<nb> so if you want to become an insider, just be active in getting DotGNU
moving
forward and egttingorganised etc :-)
End of #dotgnu buffer Sat Mar 16 20:26:04 2002
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