Re: Emacs learning curve

[Dirk-Jan C . Binnema]

>>>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:58:10 -0300, Stephen Eilert ("SE") wrote:

  SE> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Wojciech Meyer
  SE> <address@hidden> wrote:
  >> Yes. Cua mode is not a solution. The solution would be a minor mode
  >> that preserves CUA keys but disables *completely* emacs ones. The mode
  >> should be easy to toggle and there need to be evident feedback when it
  >> is on, a screen nagging about advanced features avaiable when you
  >> switch the mode on. One will have chance to learn new bindigs
  >> gradually. Wojciech

  SE> I'd argue the other way. CUA is not the problem.

  SE> There are a few things worth noticing:

  SE> 1-Emacs discoverability
  SE>   It is quite good, once you know how and what to look for.
  SE> describe-key, describe-mode, describe-function and apropos are
  SE> invaluable. Only beginners won't know how to do such things unless
  SE> explicitely told

Well put - one of the issues with a lot of the documentation is that it
reflects the way emacs works, rather than how to solve a certain task.

Another way many users discover tasks is through the menus -- and the menus
could be rationalized a bit, without (hopefully) alienating too many long-time
users, as they (I assume) do not use the menus much anyhow (or would have
complained that the *menu* actually uses cut/copy/paste for
kill/kill-ring-save/yank)

There's a lot of improvements possible there -- which has been discussed
elsewhere. E.g., only one calculator (probably the simple one) would suffice
in 'Options'. And why are there games under 'Tools', etc. etc.


  SE> 2- Learning curve
  SE>   Pointless. I've been using it for years and I'm still learning. It
  SE> would be best to ask: 'what is the minimum skillset to be moderately
  SE> productive in everyday text editing?' I can't really answer that, yet.
  SE> But I suspect you need very few commands for that.

Well, there's learning curve to be up to Notepad-level (which already brings
some obstacles that should probably not really scare the target audience), to
getting up to, say, Eclipse/IDE level - having tagging set up,
auto-completion, maybe some snippets system, SCM -- that's quite a bit harder
with emacs than it is with other editors.

Of course, emacs brings infinitely more (which I am using it), but it wouldn't
hurt to make what many would call 'basics' easier -- i.e.., can a new emacs
user have such features working in a few hours, and if not, how could we make
that easier.

  SE> 3- Appearance
  SE>   Greatly improved by default on gnome ever since XFT was included. An
  SE> ugly editor will put off many people. People tend to equate shiny =
  SE> good, even technically informed ones. That's unfortunate, but
  SE> unavoidable.

True. There are some issues still -- it'd be nice to have toolkit-combo boxes
for auto-completion, toolkit-tabs, a bit shinier mode-line etc.; but IMHO
those are less important. They'll get there, eventually.

  SE>   I'd say Emacs is doing fine. Color-theme should be included by
  SE> default and easily accessible IMHO. The only odd thing is really the
  SE> modeline but, while it can be intimidating, it is also intriguing.

I have some doubts about the implementation of 'color-themes', but something
like that would be nice. Note that color-themes don't seem to be a very
important feature for other editors.
  
  SE> 4- Defaults
  SE>   Here's where CUA comes in. Users expect the usual copy and paste
  SE> behavior (including the ability to copy and paste among application)
  SE> and *will* get completely confused by Emacs' kill-ring. The kill-ring
  SE> is nice, but it is not straightforward to explain without visual
  SE> feedback.
  SE>   Ditto for undo: I myself was confused by it for quite a while.
  SE>   My toolbars and menubars are turned off, but I'd say that they need
  SE> some cleaning up. After all, menus are where most users will 'hunt'
  SE> for features.

Yes -- I am not sure defaults are *so* important; the emacs target group
should be able to add one line (mimic-other-editors-mode 1) to their .emacs,
because if that's too hard, probably emacs is not really the right editor for
this person. And we could even put it in some kind of first-use wizard
thing. The details of what should be in this mode are bit harder to determine
though...

Also, I think there are more vi/vim-users than emacs users -- and vi/vim has a
/much/ weirder mode of operation than emacs -- 'being like the others' is
maybe not be the most important thing of all.

Best wishes,
Dirk.

-- 
Dirk-Jan C. Binnema                  Helsinki, Finland
e:address@hidden           w:www.djcbsoftware.nl
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