Re: use-package.el -> Emacs core

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Juanma Barranquero <address@hidden> writes:

> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Oleh Krehel <address@hidden> wrote:
>> I have a completely opposite opinion regarding syntactic sugar: it's
>> detrimental unless you know what it does.

> I think you're assuming that someone who uses such syntactic sugar will
> eventually want to learn what's underneath the sugar coating. Some do, some
> don't. I've had colleagues who were happy using Emacs but wouldn't want to
> learn even the simplest thing about elisp.

I agree, Juanma. I see what Oleh is saying pedagogically, but there are *many*
Emacs users who will never want to know anything about Emacs Lisp. Even if
they cut&paste an `add-to-list' form from some blog post -- and even given the
obvious nature of the name -- they won't know what Lisp lists are, or why they
need to be added to, or any of the things we take for granted. They just want
their Emacs to work.

use-package.el is a valuable DSL, in my opinion, because package configuration
is the one place in Emacs where non-Lisp programmers (and people who don't
want to become programmers) are forced to use Emacs Lisp to configure Emacs in
ways not allowed by the customization interface.

To suggest that we might lose an educational opportunity because we aren't
driving them towards define-key and with-eval-after-load, is to think of Emacs
as a Lisp environment rather than a text editor. Those who are motivated will
learn what these things do anyway; those who are not just want to get stuff
done with Emacs.

To me the primary reasons for having a DSL are: It makes it easier to do the
Right Thing; there are fewer things you need to learn; it offers more targeted
error handling and reporting; and for those who will cargo cult anyway, it
makes Emacs configuration (i.e., not Lisp, but configuration) more uniform
 and approachable.

Oleh's arguments against use-package.el seems to be that it will widen the gap
between users and Lisp; I want it to narrow the gap between users and Emacs.

John

Summary of responses so far:

For (7):

- Nicolas Petton
- Joakim Verona
- Phillip Lord
- Dimtry Gutov
- Artur Malabarb
- Kaushal Modi
- Ted Zlatanov

Cautious (1):

- Andreas Röhler

Against (2):

- Oleh Krehel - It encourages people away from learning Elisp
- João Távora - Adds too many bells & whistles
- [Stefan Monnier] - It detracts from authors taking package.el more seriously 
(?)