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[SUMMARY] #4 [[bbb:OrgMeetup]] on Wed, Dec 13, 19:00 UTC+3

From: Ihor Radchenko
Subject: [SUMMARY] #4 [[bbb:OrgMeetup]] on Wed, Dec 13, 19:00 UTC+3
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 13:06:39 +0000

Here is a short summary of the main discussion points (those that I

- We started late, and the meeting was a bit chaotic this time. But
  also a bit more relaxing as we just had a few people, with just me
  and Matt discussing ob-shell development towards the end.

- Sacha Chua mentioned her recent work on EmacsConf and blog posts on
  automating video uploads to YouTube and Toobnix from Elisp:
- She also hinted that she has many Emacs-related ideas accumulated over
  the busy recent years waiting to be tried. ... The old good PIM debt:
- Me, kickingvegas, and exc (matt) [ob-shell maintainer] discussed
  about using Org mode on mobile
  - We have a number of Android, iOS, and web apps these days:
    - Emacs master has experimental Android support; one can use Org mode 
natively on Android
      - Serious usage is easier with USB-C or bluetooth keyboard though
      - But one can hack around toolbar to, for example, read through
        the notes and execute code blocks
    - https://beorgapp.com/
    - https://xenodium.com/an-ios-journaling-app-powered-by-org-plain-text/
    - recent https://github.com/Artawower/orgnote
      - This one is promising (although early in development) as it aims for
        1. org-roam-ui interface for android and web (in future, for iOS)
        2. crdt-inspired synchronization for more accurate conflict resolution
           - see https://emacsconf.org/2023/talks/collab/ for how powerful crdt 
can be
           - https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/crdt.html
    - kickingvegas mentioned that using mobile phone for taking notes
      in Org is not yet ideal - the existing apps do not have the
      state-of-art UI
    - mobile Org apps are still handy when one needs to get access to
      agenda view/calendar/quick notes on-the-go
- Someone implemented ncurses interface for Org mode: 
  - Not clear why it should be better than terminal Emacs, but crazy
    times ... (we did not actually watch the video though XD)
- We discussed Org mode implementations outside Emacs - there are plenty
  - Multiple Org mode implementations for Vim/Neovim
    - https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode 
    - https://github.com/jceb/vim-orgmode
    - https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode
  - https://github.com/vscode-org-mode/vscode-org-mode
  - Github partially supports Org mode markup
  - Hugo (note: *not* ox-hugo, but the proper Hugo static blog generator) also 
supports Org mode natively
    - https://gohugo.io/content-management/formats/
      - Hugo uses one of many Org mode parser libraries 
  - That's why Org mode is moving towards more standard and stable syntax 
    - https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/871rjhha8t.fsf@gmail.com/
      (submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type)
    - https://orgmode.org/worg/org-syntax.html
    - There is also Karl Voit's idea about defining subsets of Org
      syntax for easier implementation
      - https://emacsconf.org/2021/talks/org-outside/
- I mentioned how I manage Org mode-related news from Reddit, blogs,
  Mastodon, and track development of Org mode-related libraries
  - In short, I simply use elfeed - https://github.com/skeeto/elfeed
  - Pretty much all the forges and forums provide RSS feeds that can be added 
to Elfeed
    - Examples:
      https://old.reddit.com/user/yantar92/.rss (user feed)
      https://old.reddit.com/r/orgmode/.rss (subreddit feed)
      https://emacs.ch/@sachac.rss (user)
      https://emacs.ch/@emacs.rss (tracking everything tagged #emacs)
      - A note on RSS feeds for Mastodon: they do not have titles,
        making it awkward to eyeball in Elfeed (they appear as empty
        - I use a customization to swap contents and title for such feeds
  - And when an RSS feed is not available, there is https://docs.rsshub.app/
    (can be self-hosted in Docker)

- ob-shell maintainer shared his recent background work on
  lisp/ob-shell.el, in a form of Org notes. The notes may eventually
  be shared to public.
  - One of the topics he is looking into is integrating 
  - We also discussed my future plans related to ob-shell
    - I have some WIP work on formalizing babel backend definitions
      using a system similar to export backends. It should make it
      more clear what should be implemented by individual babel
      backends, as backend slots will be explicitly listed, unlike the
      current situation where the backends have to define a
      poorly-documented set of variables with special names
    - There is some work being done on improving security of external
      commands executed by the backends. In particular, when the
      backends use header arguments as a part of command calls (and
      are thus vulnerable to shell expansion abuse)
    - There are also more general plans to introduce an interactive
      code execution safety system when Org needs to run anything
      coming from an Org file (potentially downloaded from internet);
      not user configuration.
  - There is a WIP patch adding ANSI highlighting support in Org files - 
    - Particularly useful to get colorful shell block output
  - We briefly discussed an annoying implementation detail with
    ob-shell, when the code block being executed may either use
    cat script-file | bash or bash -c script-file depending on the
    header arguments. This difference does not matter most of the
    time, but sometimes it does, which is annoying:
  - We discussed an idea to combine ob-shell with ob-screen to allow
    interacting with TUI apps right from inside Org src blocks
    - ob-screen can interact with proper terminal that support ncurses, 
graphics, etc
    - but ob-screen cannot get any output
    - ob-shell just works with comint (text-only, no user interaction other 
than inputting commands)
    - ob-screen + ob-shell may allow controlling ~mc~ (ncurses program) or give 
yes/no answers to scripts
      - emacs-eat may expose these things to Elisp - potential to get
        truly interactive (with graphics and with getting output + *input*)
      - emacs-eat may even "... emulate terminal within any region of a
        buffer.", potentially opening up to embedded terminal inside Org files
        - I am not 100% if I understand this correctly, but if it is
          something akin nested buffers
          https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/87h8kou1c0.fsf@telefonica.net/... oh 

Ihor Radchenko
5:10 PM

exc (matt)
5:18 PM

exc (matt)
5:57 PM

need to step away from keyboard, brb
exc (matt)
5:58 PM

exc (matt)
6:21 PM

<redacted ...>
Ihor Radchenko
6:26 PM

6:28 PM

gotta head out - take care folks!
Ihor Radchenko
6:48 PM

Ihor Radchenko
6:54 PM

Ihor Radchenko
7:23 PM


Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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