Re: GNUSTEP_INSTALLATION_DOMAIN

[Richard Frith-Macdonald]

On 12 Oct 2006, at 21:00, Nicola Pero wrote:

> > On consideration, I think we should stick to current conventions ...
>
> Ok ... but then you seem to have a weird perception of the current
> conventions ... ;-)
>
> The GNUstep filesystem document (which took ages of mailing list  
> flamewars
> to write) explicitly says that --
>
> "Every software (except for gnustep-make, gnustep-base, gnustep-gui  
> and
> gnustep-back
> which by default install into the System domain) should install by
> default into the Local domain, so that if you download a source
> tarball of the software and you install it, it installs by default in
> the right place for this operation (the Local domain).  Distributions
> should override this default manually when they package the software
> they want to distribute as part of their distribution, so that in that
> case the software is installed in the System domain."
>
> It has been saying that for the past few years, so I guess that's what
> the current convention is. ;-)

No ... I guess it's just what the filesystem document says ... not  
what's actually done.
AFAIK nothing has been changed to do what that says, perhaps because  
people didn't notice the change, or perhaps because it didn't make  
sense to them?

> > On a system where the traditional GNUstep filesystem layout is not
> > used, the System domain should be /usr/local or /opt or whatever,
> > unless the people managing a distribution want it to be /usr on that
> > distribution of course.  I imagine that on such systems the System
> > and Local domains might be the same place.
>
> I don't agree at all ... the System domain will of course be /usr,  
> and the
> Local
> domain will be /usr/local.  Otherwise, why do we have domains at  
> all ? :-)

I think you completely miss the point ... being that the managers of  
a distribution decide where they want things to install on their  
distribution.
There is a BIG distinction between distribution managers installing  
packages as part of a distribution and normal users installing  
additional packages.

> Presumably FHS compliance will also require that ... stuff coming with
> the distribution goes into System (/usr), stuff you manually  
> install yourself
> from sources goes into Local (/usr/local) ... feels obvious.

Sure ... exactly what I said.  The location of stuff coming with the  
distribution is handled by the managers of the distribution.

> Let's make an example.
>
> Let's say I take gnustep-make and gnustep-base from Debian  
> packages.  They
> use
> Debian FHS policy, so no doubt System will be /usr and Local will be
> /usr/local
> (or /opt, whatever).  They will then be installed in /usr.  Which is
> great, as
> I know /usr is stuff managed by Debian.

Only if they are part of the debian distribution  ... ie the managers  
of the distribution want to put them there.
If they are *not* part of the distribution, I think it's debian  
policy to put them in /usr/local.

> Then, I download sqlclient and compile it manually.  Should it go  
> in /usr or
> in /usr/local ?  Obviously in /usr/local.  Which is great, as I  
> know that
> /usr/local
> is stuff I installed myself.  sqlclient is still part of GNUstep,  
> but by
> default
> if I download a package, it goes into /usr/local.

Sure ... you are not the manager of the distribution, but the  
distribution supplied GNUstep stuff, so for you to conform to  
distribution conventions, the system domain for installation should  
be set to /usr/local on that system.
NB. the system domain for installation purposes would not be the same  
as the system domain for all other purposes in this case.
It depends how you want to look at it, but the point is that the  
installation process should not treat installation by a normal user  
the same as installation by the package distributor ... a  normal  
user should not be overwriting packages provided by the system.
Take the base library for instance ... it's default location is the  
system domain.  When a distribution maintainer installs it they may  
want the system domain to be /usr so it goes in /usr.  However, when  
a normal user downloads and installs a version it should get  
installed in /usr/local because normal users should not be installing  
into /usr.
The easy way to do this is for the maintainer to build/install using  
a copy of the make system where the system domain is set to /usr, but  
to send out the distribution with a copy of the make system set to  
install system domain packages into /usr/local

> That would work exactly like any other GNU/Unix/Debian package.   
> Which is
> the whole
> reason we're working for FHS integration etc. etc.  People want to  
> be able
> to use
> GNUstep like they use any other package, without special setups /
> conventions / etc.

Exactly what I'm proposing.

> > > Anyway I suggest as a reasonable agreement, we'll use b. to set the
> > > installation domain
> > > as System for the 4 core packages (make, base, gui, back).  All  
> > > other
> > > packages should have
> > > no default set and so install by default in Local (packagers are
> > > encouraged to install them
> > > into System instead when they package though).  Makes sense ?
> >
> > No ... not really.  The System domain is for all system packages, not
> > just a few core libraries.
>
> I agree ... but who decides what are the system packages ?  Not  
> us. :-)
>
> It's decided by the packagers. ;-)

But we *are* the packagers for the *default* system ... the GNUstep  
system.

> The reason to have separate System and Local domains is not to have
> "first class" packages in System and "second class" packages in Local.
>
> The reason is that when you look at your hard disk, you know what is
> managed by your distribution and you shouldn't touch, and what you
> are managing yourself and can mess up as you wish.
>
> The fact that a package belongs to GNUstep or not doesn't tell me
> anything about whether my distribution/packaging system is managing
> it or whether I installed it from scratch.  They are separate  
> issues. ;-)

Only where you are using a system with GNUstep stuff pre-installed.
Many (most?) people are not using such a system ... they have  
installed the 'GNUstep system' on their machine.
It's located in /usr/GNUstep.
The standard packages are in /usr/GNUstep/System
Other stuff is in /usr/GNUstep/Local

> > I would like to see *more* packages brought into GNUstep and the
> > System domain rather than having things excluded from it, as I feel
> > that it would be good to have a complete environment.  For instance,
> > it would be nice if GNUMail was part of GNUstep.
>
> The fact that something is installed by the packager into the System
> domain or not has nothing to do with being part of the GNUstep  
> project.
>
> It would be the same as saying that things installed in /usr are part
> of the GNU project, while things installed in /usr/local are not.   
> But these
> are totally unrelated issues.

You have it back to front ...
In trying to put together a GNUstep system. the GNUstep project is  
trying to provide a collection of packages which work well together  
and gives the user something like the NeXTstep operating system used  
to do.  The GNUstep project is the default distribution.