Re: Miniaturize a panel

[Wolfgang Lux]

Christopher Armstrong wrote:

> Hi Wolfgang
>
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:34 +0000, "Wolfgang Lux" <address@hidden 
> >
> wrote:
> > Germán Arias wrote:
> >
> > > With native decoration, trying to miniaturize a panel don't work  
> > > (I'm
> > > trying on GNOME). Sometimes works, but this is a odd behavior.
> >
> > Quoting Apple's User Interface Guidelines: “A user would never need  
> > to
> > minimize a panel because it is displayed only when needed and
> > disappears when its application is inactive. Therefore, the minimize
> > button is always unavailable. A panel should have the close and zoom
> > buttons or, if you don’t want users to be able to use the zoom  
> > button,
> > only the close button.”
> > (http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/
> > UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGWindows/
> > XHIGWindows.html%23//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000961-TPXREF17).
> >
> > So the problem is that GNOME's window manager displays a miniaturize
> > button in the first place (incidentally, I observed this behavior
> > under KDE and not under GNOME, but then I'm not using either of these
> > environments regularly). The problem is that -back uses Motif style
> > window manager hints to tell the window manager about the intended
> > window decorations and in addition maps window levels onto EWMH  
> > window
> > types. Unfortunately, the EWMH standard gives window managers a lot
> > (too much?) of freedom about how to decorate windows and in  
> > particular
> > allows them to completely ignore Motif style window manager hints and
> > we end up with panels that are not prepared (or supposed) to be
> > miniaturized but do have a miniaturize button.
>
> I'd disagree that EWMH gives window managers too much freedom about
> window decoration (the point of a window manager is to dictate
> consistent window decoration policy, not clients), but I'm in the
> opposite camp that believe EWMH is a good thing and that we should  
> work
> with it, not ignore it.

I once used to believe that EWMH is a good thing, but having used at  
least four different window managers that are (or least claim to be)  
EWMH complaint, I just cannot help concluding that the standard is  
just rather unspecific in a lot of respects and window decorations is  
just one of them. To the standard just looks like a mash up of the  
least common denominator of features supported by GNOME's and KDE's  
window managers.

> Ignoring all that, you said that panels *never* have a minimise button
> (according to Apples HIG). If that is true, we should be checking for
> the NSMiniaturizableWindowMask in the backend, and using some other  
> EWMH
> hints such as:
> * _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR.  We can request this so the panels do  
> not
> appear in the taskbar, which would (hopefully) mean that it cannot be
> miniturised i.e. whats the point of miniaturising a window if the user
> can't restore it again.

Your "hopefully" exactly states the problem: The EWMH standard just  
doesn't specify when a window managers is supposed to display a  
miniaturize button and when it shouldn't.

> * _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_UTILITY for normal panels will probably help, as
> should NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DIALOG for modal dialog panels.

Once again, the standard is silent about whether such dialogs have a  
miniaturize button or not.

> * ICCCM's WM_TRANSIENT_FOR should also also be enough to indicate that
> panels are not normal windows - it should be enough to set this hint  
> to
> point to the main window or the menu window if it is present. Note  
> that
> this hint is a "nice to have" and not a "need to have" if we are only
> considering EWMH support.
>
> I think the problem at the moment is that we use only window levels to
> determine the EWMH hints, and the window masks to determine Motif  
> hints,
> when we probably need something more sophisticated for EWMH that
> considers both window levels and window masks. Abandoning EWMH
> altogether I think is a rash decision, especially if newer window
> managers decide not to support Motif hints.


Wolfgang