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Software/HD ecology (was Re:...Bug in Emacs 21.3.50)


From: Ajanta
Subject: Software/HD ecology (was Re:...Bug in Emacs 21.3.50)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:23:26 GMT
User-agent: Thoth/1.5.10 (Carbon/OS X)

Stefan Monnier <foo@acm.com> wrote:

> The size of emacs/lisp/language is about 700KB here.  Peanuts. 
>...
> The amount of space used up by the other emacs/lisp/international features
> (mostly support for various charsets) is less than 4MB.  Not worth
> the trouble.
> ...
> HD space is not expensive enough to justify wasting any time on this.
 
First of all, thank you for all the help. Secondly, I do have a
slightly different philosophical perspective on unneeded disk clutter,
perhaps rooted in my familarity with the third world. 

You see, people in the 3rd world produce much less trash than say the
US. And their urban poor actually "recycle" most of it. Yet, without
systematic and uncompromising management, it still keeps adding up, and
their cities are living hell compared to American cities that in fact
generate a lot more garbage. 

The difference is in constant sorting and processing, of even the
smallest piece of paper or plastic, shall we say of even a single
peanut shell? :) 

In fact many 3rd world people show remarkably similar attitude: the
Forest/River/Beach is so big and I am just throwing one candy wrapper,
what's the big deal?

To make a long story short I believe all programs should come with
tools to minimize unnecessary clutter and also to safely and completely
uninstall themselves if asked.

A
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Tue Dec 10 12:35:10 2002
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From: Galen Boyer <galenboyer@hotpop.com>
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To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology (was Re:...Bug in Emacs 21.3.50)
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On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, ajanta@no.spam wrote:
> Stefan Monnier <foo@acm.com> wrote:
> 
>> The size of emacs/lisp/language is about 700KB here.  Peanuts.
>>...
>> The amount of space used up by the other
>> emacs/lisp/international features (mostly support for various
>> charsets) is less than 4MB.  Not worth the trouble.  ...  HD
>> space is not expensive enough to justify wasting any time on
>> this.
>  
> First of all, thank you for all the help. Secondly, I do have a
> slightly different philosophical perspective on unneeded disk
> clutter, perhaps rooted in my familarity with the third world.
> 
> You see, people in the 3rd world produce much less trash than
> say the US. And their urban poor actually "recycle" most of
> it. Yet, without systematic and uncompromising management, it
> still keeps adding up, and their cities are living hell
> compared to American cities that in fact generate a lot more
> garbage.
> 
> The difference is in constant sorting and processing, of even
> the smallest piece of paper or plastic, shall we say of even a
> single peanut shell? :)
> 
> In fact many 3rd world people show remarkably similar attitude:
> the Forest/River/Beach is so big and I am just throwing one
> candy wrapper, what's the big deal?
> 
> To make a long story short I believe all programs should come
> with tools to minimize unnecessary clutter and also to safely
> and completely uninstall themselves if asked.

Whew!

Can you send an encrypted phone number to your dealer?  My stash
of really awesome POT is getting low.

-- 
Galen Boyer
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Tue Dec 10 12:50:11 2002
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From: Phillip Lord <p.lord@russet.org.uk>
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To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology (was Re:...Bug in Emacs 21.3.50)
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>>>>> "Galen" == Galen Boyer <galenboyer@hotpop.com> writes:

  Galen> On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, ajanta@no.spam wrote:

  >> First of all, thank you for all the help. Secondly, I do have a
  >> slightly different philosophical perspective on unneeded disk
  >> clutter, perhaps rooted in my familarity with the third world.

  Galen> Can you send an encrypted phone number to your dealer?  My
  Galen> stash of really awesome POT is getting low.


Actually, it's not so daft as you might think. 

I went to a conference a while back, where someone was talking about
the problems of computing in the third world. For instance, they
talked about having internet access via satellite. This sounds great,
till you realise that this means you get half an hours access a day,
when the satellite happens to be over head. 

Okay, I hear you cry, why not just use copper wires? Probably cheaper
than satellite access. Well, the problem was that every time they put
up copper wires, someone with a big pair of croppers came along and
took the wire away. Copper is expensive after all. I thought I had
some ideas of the problems the third world might have, but it turns
out that most of my ideas were wrong.

At the end of the day, Stefan's point, that hard drive space is not
worth the effort saving it would entail, is true. Hard drive space is
cheap, while people are expensive. But, of course, this is only true
in some parts of the world. In many parts of the third world, its the
other way around. 

Of course, emacs is not a large offender in this day and age, and
there are many worse. I current have six versions of emacs on my hard
drive, because I've not got around to deleting pretest versions. 

The solution here, though, is the "scratching an itch" one. I can
understand why the emacs maintainers don't want to spend time on
it. Other might though, and they should probably be the ones to submit
patches!

Incidentally, on the pot front, you did know about M-x dealer I
presume?

Phil
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From: Galen Boyer <galenboyer@hotpop.com>
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Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology (was Re:...Bug in Emacs 21.3.50)
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On 10 Dec 2002, p.lord@russet.org.uk wrote:

[Snip of a reasonable explanation, not laden with PCP...]

I still don't understand how, if someone can buy a computer, a
little more disk space is going to kill them.


> Incidentally, on the pot front, you did know about M-x dealer I
> presume?

I didn't get any matches.  Damn.

-- 
Galen Boyer
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Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology (was Re:...Bug in Emacs 21.3.50)
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>>>>> "Galen" == Galen Boyer <galenboyer@hotpop.com> writes:

  Galen> On 10 Dec 2002, p.lord@russet.org.uk wrote:

  Galen> [Snip of a reasonable explanation, not laden with PCP...]

  Galen> I still don't understand how, if someone can buy a computer,
  Galen> a little more disk space is going to kill them.

You are assuming that they have bought the computer. Perhaps they go
it on a freebie. The first world gets through a lot of computers, and
many of the old ones head out to the third world. I know its hard to
believe, but there are many many people out there still using 486's. 




  >> Incidentally, on the pot front, you did know about M-x dealer I
  >> presume?

  Galen> I didn't get any matches.  Damn.


M-x spark.

Also worth while is M-x bogart, if you start to cop a whitey. 

Phil
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>>>>> Felix E Klee writes:

> Thanks for the suggestion of outline-mode. I tried it out and also
> tried outline-magic.el (a nice improvement). However, it's not
> perfect since isearch opens sections that are folded in. So if I'm
> looking eg. for my google groups password I might use isearch and
> type in g o o g l e.  However, the first character, g, might open a
> section that I wanted to keep closed.

I don't know if you can force sections to stay closed.  I think your
best bet for this would be to encrypt the regions that you don't want
displayed.  Crypt++ has the facility to encrypt a region.

-- 
David Masterson                David DOT Masterson AT synopsys DOT com
Sr. R&D Engineer               Synopsys, Inc.
Software Engineering           Sunnyvale, CA
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Kester Clegg <kester@cs.york.ac.uk> writes:

> Yes, I wondered about that. I posted this twice in error, in the second
> posting I suspected 'last' didn't mean most recently arrived.  How can I
> get my cursor to do jump to 'most recently arrived article'?

I don't know.  I think you have to write it yourself.  Hm.  Maybe invoke
gnus-summary-goto-article on (last gnus-newsgroup-articles)?

Does this work?

M-: (gnus-summary-goto-article (car (last gnus-newsgroup-articles))) RET

If so, make a small Lisp function for this.

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)
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From: kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai =?iso-8859-1?q?Gro=DFjohann?=)
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"CarlC" <carlc@snowbd.com> writes:

> I don't want to completely segregate search strings between buffers. When I
> save a file, I want emacs to "remember" the latest search string so that
> when I re-edit the file, C-s C-s will use that string. If I save one file
> right after another, they would have the same search string saved. Seems
> trivial, but is useful in our environment.

I'm afraid you have to do it yourself, then.

It's not clear to me how to find out if two files are saved `right
after another'.  Hm.  You would have to arrange for Emacs to save the
search strings in an extra file on exit.  Hm.  desktop.el can already
save some things, and I think it can be configured to save more, so
you might be able to hook into that.

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)
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From: kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai =?iso-8859-1?q?Gro=DFjohann?=)
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Tim Haynes <usenet@stirfried.vegetable.org.uk> writes:

> More to the point, you totally lose the point of having emacs being an X
> application: the mouse-interaction will be fubarred and there won't be any
> scope for a toolbar, nor even for a graphical representation of the
> menubar.

xterm-mouse-mode might help with some of that.
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)
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From: Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca>
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Does anyone happen to know if there is anything out there like hideshow.el
but that works properly with java when one uses an aligned parenthesis
coding style?

e.g. a style like

for (whatever)
{
  some code;
  more code;
}

(Actually, I seem to recall older versions of hideshow working, so perhaps
I'll try to get one of these working if I can't find anything else).

-- 
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving.  It's eating that's believing.
                -- James Thurber
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Tue Dec 10 14:45:09 2002
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From: Romain FRANCOISE <romain@orebokech.com>
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Jens Schmidt writes:

> I am looking for a project and time reporting system for Emacs.
> Basically something in the spirit of timeclock.el, but with some more
> functionality, in particular wrt. reporting ("How much time did I
> spend in the last month on that particular project?").

There is a worklog.el out there which seems to do just that, but I
didn't try it myself. Kai's the author, maybe he can tell you more about
it.

The URL for this package apparently is 

ftp://ls6-ftp.cs.uni-dortmund.de/pub/src/emacs/worklog.el

but it seems to be an old version, so a search for "worklog.el" in
Google Groups will probably be more successful.

        Romain.

-- 
Romain FRANCOISE <romain@orebokech.com> | There are doors that let you
it's a miracle -- http://orebokech.com/ | in.
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>>>>> On Tue Dec 10, Jens writes:

> Hi.  I am looking for a project and time reporting system for
> Emacs.  Basically something in the spirit of timeclock.el, but with
> some more functionality, in particular wrt. reporting ("How much
> time did I spend in the last month on that particular project?").
> It should be simple to use and configure: I just need to check into
> a project, check out of it, and do reporting on the long-term
> results. In particluar, I do not need any planning type of
> functionality.

> I am not sure to what extent timeclock.el has evolved since Emacs
> 21.1, probably it already has the functionality mentioned above ...

> What's your opinion on that?  What would you recommend?

I would recommend using timeclock.el to collect the data you want,
and then writing another utility to make use of it for reporting
purposes.

For example, I have personally written several Perl/Python scripts
to make use of the timeclock.el data that I've gathered over the
years (now 4 years worth).

There is no need for a "do it all" program.  Mixing and matching is
the best way to avoid recoding.  timeclock.el has a simple
interface, and a VERY simple data format.

John
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Tue Dec 10 15:20:21 2002
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To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology (was Re:...Bug in Emacs 21.3.50)
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Phillip Lord <p.lord@russet.org.uk> wrote:

> At the end of the day, Stefan's point, that hard drive space is not
> worth the effort saving it would entail, is true.  

I didn't get my point across. The problem is not of space but clutter.
If you see some trash thrown around somewhere, it is not necessarily
occupying a large % of the space or volume. But it is still clutter,
that would add up. However, I would concede that tolerance for or
aversion to such things is probably a matter of personal taste. 

> Hard drive space is cheap, while people are expensive.

Of course it would be some effort to clean up an old warehouse, but
keeping a house clean, if done regularly with good habits in the first
place, is not such a big deal. So is the case with software.

> I current have six versions of emacs on my hard drive, because I've not 
> got around to deleting pretest versions. 

Your life, your choice. I just picked up a toast that had fallen on the
floor. My lunch, my choice. :) But to guest or even in a soup kitchen,
I wouldn't do that. Standards are different when you are serving
others, with or without charge.
 
> I can understand why the emacs maintainers don't want to spend time on
> it. Other might though, and they should probably be the ones to submit
> patches!

I think it is a matter of overall awareness, and also some discipline
being imposed by the people who are in-charge.

A
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"Kai Großjohann" <kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de> wrote in message
news:84vg21yciw.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de...
> "CarlC" <carlc@snowbd.com> writes:
>
> It's not clear to me how to find out if two files are saved `right
> after another'.  Hm.  You would have to arrange for Emacs to save the
> search strings in an extra file on exit.  Hm.  desktop.el can already
> save some things, and I think it can be configured to save more, so
> you might be able to hook into that.

It doesn't matter to me when a file is saved. I just want to have the search
string saved with that file. From what I have read, desktop.el is not what I
want. I think that session.el _can_ do what I want, but am having trouble
saving isearch-string as a local variable. Let's say that I open file A,
search for "123", make some mods and then save file A. When I open file B,
C-s C-s will do a search for "123" if I use session.el. I want this to do a
search on the string that was used when I last saved file B, not file A.

My impression of desktop.el is that it will resume my last session exactly
as I left it. All buffers opened with cursor in last position, etc. I just
want to be able to open a file explicitly and retain position and search
string from the previous edit of that file.



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