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Re: Software/HD ecology


From: Ajanta
Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:21:28 GMT
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Bijan Soleymani <bijan@psq.com> wrote:

> In that case you might want to check out GNU stow. You put all your
> software in a stow directory /usr/local/stow/ or /usr/sw/ one program
> per subdirectory. Then when you run stow it makes symlinks in
> /usr/local/. This way you can even do this sort of thing with
> libraries or  programs you would like to have in your path.

I wasn't aware of this and will have to look into it. However, unless a
program's creators cooperate, I can't visualize how stow would prevent
a program from installing files all over the place leaving you with no
way to uninstall?

A practical problem is that except perhaps to an insider most names are
unintuitive. If a file is named emacs-foo or foo.el you can guess what
it is but a name like zuplibfoo (this is hypothetical, but most unix
names have similar transparency) doesn't tell you which of the hundreds
of packages it might belong to. So you can't even try to uninstall
everything manually.

A
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From: kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai =?iso-8859-1?q?Gro=DFjohann?=)
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To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology
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Phillip Lord <p.lord@russet.org.uk> writes:

>>>>>> "Anil" == Anil Trivedi <anil@null.invalid> writes:
>
>   Anil> 2. Once the program compiles, and works fine, the user should
>   Anil>    be able
>   Anil> to delete all files that were needed in compiling but will not
>   Anil> be needed in running it, or in uninstalling it.
>  
> I think Kai's example showed the problem with this. 

Note that we might be talking cross purposes.  (Is that the right
idiom?)

If people download emacs-*.tar.gz, unpack it into, say /tmp/src, then
./configure --prefix=/usr/local; make; make install, then surely
afterwards /tmp/src can be deleted without any ill effects.

This has been said previously in this thread.  It might be what Anil
is referring to, I'm not sure.

The *.el and *.elc files installed in /usr/local are a different
beast entirely.  It's not good to delete the *.el files there -- we
agree on that.

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)
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From: kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai =?iso-8859-1?q?Gro=DFjohann?=)
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Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology
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Bijan Soleymani <bijan@psq.com> writes:

> In that case you might want to check out GNU stow. You put all your
> software in a stow directory /usr/local/stow/ or /usr/sw/ one program
> per subdirectory. Then when you run stow it makes symlinks in
> /usr/local/. This way you can even do this sort of thing with
> libraries or  programs you would like to have in your path.

I don't use Stow, but I think it's not a (complete) solution.  We have
several versions of Java installed in /usr/sw/java, and some people
need one version whereas other people need another version (on the
same machine).

I'm thinking about making a directory /usr/sw/bin and populating it
with symlinks, but currently, we don't have enough software packages
to justify this effort.  (Happily, Debian provides lots of packages
so we don't have to install too many of them.)
-- 
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From: kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai =?iso-8859-1?q?Gro=DFjohann?=)
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"jfbusby" <busbyjf@cox.net> writes:

> I am using emacs on a 15 in monito and need to have the entire emacs screen
> show within the boundary of the display. What do I need to do.

"emacs -geometry 80x25" will start up with 80 columns and 25 rows.
Does that help?

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kumarchi@yahoo.com (nanjil) writes:

> I get the following message when I open a .c file
>
> File mode specification error: (invalid-function (.\c++-)
> and then emacs opens file in fundamental mode.
> Then I manually change teh mode to c. That is a pain.

Seems to be a bug in your init files.  In particular, in
auto-mode-alist.  Please type C-h v auto-mode-alist RET and post what
that gives you.
-- 
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Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology (was Re:...Bug in Emacs 21.3.50)
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Stefan Monnier <foo@acm.com> wrote:

> Do you have anything concrete like filenames so we might be able
> to do something about it or at least explain why things are the
> way they are ?

Obviously, I have failed to express myself. As you said, emacs has
close to 3,000 files. If I install ten similarly large packages, that
is 30,000 files. I don't want to get to know them personally. What I
want is to be able to install and uninstall such packages cleanly and
safely.

> > As I mentioned in the beginning post of this thread, the distribution
> > of Emacs 21.3.50 that I got for Mac OSX has *three* executables of
> 
> All under the single `Emacs.app' directory.  Seems clean enough to me.

I mentioned that as a different kind of bug: 3 files where 1 is needed,
16 MB of wasted space.
 
> PS: I'm not quite sure what you want w.r.t the non-english language support.
> Do you also consider it as clutter?  If so how and why ?

At present the languages number in 10's but soon it may be 100's. I am
glad they are included. It is not clutter in the *distribution*, but it
becomes clutter in my *system* if I am stuck with it all with no tools
to safely select *my* language(s). 

An analogy might be to ship a fat distribution with binaries for every
cpu architecture and OS, and expect a user to keep everything because
it is a lot of work to separate them. That would be stupid. IMHO it
would be equally stupid to force people to keep 100's of languages they
have no prayer of learning/understanding/needing in one lifetime.

A
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Kai Großjohann <kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de> wrote:

> I'm thinking about making a directory /usr/sw/bin and populating it
> with symlinks, but currently, we don't have enough software packages
> to justify this effort.  (Happily, Debian provides lots of packages
> so we don't have to install too many of them.)

This is not the most deeply probing question, but is /usr/sw simply
your personal preference or is there a good reason for avoiding the
more traditional name /usr/local ? (I am curious because I just started
installing a few programs and have been putting them in /usr/local).
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 15:20:11 2002
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Since unix routinely keeps a system-wide log on every file, I am
wondering if it would be desirable to extend that a little. 

Let us say a slightly enhanced version of "ls" could tell you not only
that a file is owned by root, wheel, etc., but also "belongs" to the
System or a user or a package like TeX or Emacs-29.9, and maybe even
its type within that package (src, doc, bin...). This requires one or
two more file attributes, but then you could check on an individual
file with "ls" or list all files belonging to a package with "find".

I think unix was conceptualized for small systems and programs, where a
user might know every file, where it came from, what it does. Either
you wrote it yourself or copied it from a friend. Those times are gone.
We have hundreds of thousands of files, know nothing about them, and
routinely install packages that bring thousands of files. The culture
and the tools have not evolved to deal with this reality and perhaps
need to. 

Shouldn't you be able to know just what a particular file named
"dtabttf" doing on your system? Similarly, while I am glad to know a
files's relationship to "wheel", it would also be useful to know it
belongs to emacs or TeX.

Anil Trivedi
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 15:30:12 2002
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I fail like I can't have a rational argument because you keep shifting
the focus from one issue to another.  For example you say:
 
> Obviously, I have failed to express myself. As you said, emacs has
> close to 3,000 files. If I install ten similarly large packages, that
> is 30,000 files. I don't want to get to know them personally. What I
> want is to be able to install and uninstall such packages cleanly and
> safely.

Which I addressed with:

>> All under the single `Emacs.app' directory.  Seems clean enough to me.

But then you replied by shifting to yet-another point:

> I mentioned that as a different kind of bug: 3 files where 1 is needed,
> 16 MB of wasted space.

As for:

> At present the languages number in 10's but soon it may be 100's. I am
> glad they are included. It is not clutter in the *distribution*, but it
> becomes clutter in my *system* if I am stuck with it all with no tools
> to safely select *my* language(s).

What's clutterish about them ?  Have you bothered to take a look
at the lisp/languages directory I mentioned earlier ?

Why does this support for other languages bother you, whereas support
for TPU-emulation, RMail, Simula, etc... doesn't ?  Do you intend to learn
Simula ?

> An analogy might be to ship a fat distribution with binaries for every
> cpu architecture and OS, and expect a user to keep everything because
> it is a lot of work to separate them. That would be stupid. IMHO it
> would be equally stupid to force people to keep 100's of languages they
> have no prayer of learning/understanding/needing in one lifetime.

I can see it as waste, but I still completely fail to see what's clutterish
about it.  The only thing I understand is that you have no clue where
to find what in all those files.  Whether that's bad or not depends on how
much effort you've put into it.


        Stefan
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 15:30:12 2002
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On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, ajanta@no.spam wrote:

> Obviously, I have failed to express myself. As you said, emacs
> has close to 3,000 files. If I install ten similarly large
> packages, that is 30,000 files. I don't want to get to know
> them personally. What I want is to be able to install and
> uninstall such packages cleanly and safely.

Why can't you just remove the entire directory structure?  The
files aren't scattered everywhere.  Install into its own
directory structure and you know where all the files are.
-- 
Galen Boyer
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 15:35:21 2002
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> At present the languages number in 10's but soon it may be 100's. I am
> glad they are included. It is not clutter in the *distribution*, but it
> becomes clutter in my *system* if I am stuck with it all with no tools
> to safely select *my* language(s). 
> 
> An analogy might be to ship a fat distribution with binaries for every
> cpu architecture and OS, and expect a user to keep everything because
> it is a lot of work to separate them. That would be stupid. IMHO it
> would be equally stupid to force people to keep 100's of languages they
> have no prayer of learning/understanding/needing in one lifetime.

I just wrote this elsewhere in another context (file attributes) but
once more will do no harm: 

Unix was conceptualized for small systems and programs, where a user
might know every file, and actually need it. Indeed, he either wrote it
himself or copied from a friend he knew, and it was all in one
language, whatever it happened to be. 

Now we have hundreds of thousands of files, know nothing about them,
and routinely install packages that bring thousands of files and
support more languages than the United Nations! All well and good, but
as the system grows, the culture and the tools need to keep up too.

Anil Trivedi
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 15:40:12 2002
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On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:10:48 -0000, "Hansjoerg Neth"
<nethh@cardiff.ac.uk> wrote:
>I'm presently using emacs, Auc TeX, MiKTeX etc. on a Win98 machine and
>have the following problem:  Every now and then my entire system
>freezes when I try to exit emacs (by C-x C-c or clicking on the 'x' in
>the top right corner of the window) and then has to be rebooted.  As
>I've already upgraded to a more recent version (21.2.1) without
>resolving the problem I was wondering whether anyone else has
>experienced or solved this problem?  Thanks & cheers,  Hans

Yes, I've had this with an earlier version of Emacs.  In my
case it was caused by an Iomega Zip drive; the fix is to
uninstall the Zip drivers.

-- 
Michael
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Phillip Lord <p.lord@russet.org.uk> wrote:


>   Anil> 2. Once the program compiles, and works fine, the user should
>   Anil> be able to delete all files that were needed in compiling but will not
>   Anil> be needed in running it, or in uninstalling it.
>   
> I think Kai's example showed the problem with this...
> Personally I find an emacs without the .el files half baked...
> The core problem is that the Emacs is a lisp interpreter...

There is no problem here. If it is desirable to keep .el files in
Emacs, let us by all means keep them. Make them unremovable and have
the program issue a stern lecture and warning to anyone who tries to
override the protection!

That is however no reason to no provide tools to delete unneeded files,
in emacs or in hundreds of other programs. 

Let me add the following philosophical plug that I have been pushing
today: Unix was conceptualized for small systems and programs, where a
user needed and knew every file, where it came from, what it does.
Either he wrote it himself or copied it from a friend. Those times are
gone. We have hundreds of thousands of files, know nothing about them,
and routinely install packages that bring thousands of files. The
culture and the tools have not evolved to deal with this reality and
perhaps need to. 

Anil Trivedi
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 15:55:11 2002
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On Sat, Nov 16 2002, Kai Großjohann wrote:

> I have \usepackage{amsmath} in my document, and C-c C-e offers me
> completions like align and gather.  Good.
>
> But C-c C-m does NOT offer \operatorname or \vskip.
>
> What's the story?

\operatorname was missing in `amsopm.el'.  I added it in CVS now.

IIRC \vskip isn't a LaTeX command (it's plain TeX), maybe you want to
use \vspace instead?

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW   http://rsteib.home.pages.de/
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 17:05:13 2002
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From: ehudre@post.tau.ac.il (Ehud Reshef)
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Subject: Re: using DDE from gnu-emacs
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Jesper Harder <harder@myrealbox.com> wrote in message 
news:<m31y4po5yw.fsf@defun.localdomain>...
> ehudre@post.tau.ac.il (Ehud Reshef) writes:
> 
> > Jesper Harder <harder@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> >> ehudre@post.tau.ac.il (Ehud Reshef) writes:
> >>
> >> > I am looking for a way to send to Acrobat, a DDE command from
> >> > gnu-Emacs
> >> 
> >> See:
> >> 
> >> <http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=wkd778pgoh.fsf%40try.harder.Invalid&rnum=3>
> >
> > I Tried to follow the lead from there, and create the following (vey
> > similar) lisp code:
> 
> You probably want something like this:
> 
> (defun acrobat-close-doc (file)
>   "Close <file> in Acrobat, using DDE."
>   (save-excursion
>     (set-buffer (get-buffer-create " *ddeclient*"))
>     (erase-buffer)
>     (insert (concat "[DocClose( " file ".pdf )]" ))
>     (call-process-region (point-min) (point-max)
>                        "ddeclient" t t nil "acroview" "control")
>     (if (= 0 (string-to-int (buffer-string))) t nil)))
> 
> (defun TeX-run-pdfLaTeX (name command file)
>   "Create a process for NAME using COMMAND to format FILE with
> pdfLaTeX."
>   ;;  (acrobat-close-all-docs)
>   (acrobat-close-doc file)
>   (TeX-run-LaTeX name command file))
> 
> > I'm not very proficient with lisp...
> 
> The problem with you Lisp code is the way you are calling functions.  In
> Lisp you call the function 'foo' with an argument arg1 like this:
> 
>   (foo arg1)
> 
> So instead of
> 
>   (acrobat-close-doc(file))
> 
> you should say: (acrobat-close-doc file)
> 
> [Contrary to popular belief, there are no redundant parens i Lisp :-)]
> 
> *But* I still don't think your version will work.  It's been a while
> since I used it, but I think the Acrobat DDE interface will only
> let you close a *specific* file if you *opened* it through DDE.  
> 
> AUC TeX doesn't open files with DDE, so you can't close them that way.
> The only easy work-around I could think of at the time was to close all
> files in Acrobat, which *is* possible even though they weren't opened
> through DDE.

You where of course right
Now I will try to change View PDF accordingly ...
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 17:10:11 2002
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From: Anil Trivedi <anil@null.invalid>
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To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology (was Re:...Bug in Emacs 21.3.50)
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Stefan Monnier <foo@acm.com> wrote:

> I fail like I can't have a rational argument because you keep shifting
> the focus from one issue to another. 

But several issues *have* been raised here: (1) Don't waste disk space,
(2) Enable users to safely delete either the functionality or files
they know they don't need, (3) And include a complete uninstall script.

Clutter is less of a problem if a complete uninstall option is there,
but it is a major problem if users have to rely on their own wits to
locate and delete the files.

> >> All under the single `Emacs.app' directory.  Seems clean enough to me.

Stefan, looks like we have both been working all night and need a very,
very strong cup of coffee. :-) Rubbing my eyes, this is what I see on
my system:

   anil% find /usr -name emacs -print
   /usr/bin/emacs
   /usr/info/emacs
   /usr/libexec/emacs
   /usr/local/bin/emacs
   /usr/share/emacs
   /usr/share/info/emacs

I only searched for the *name* emacs, there may or may not be other
emacs-ralated files and directories with different names. I love emacs
but if someone didn't want to keep it, should they just delete /usr?!

> Why does this support for other languages bother you, whereas 
> support for TPU-emulation, RMail, Simula, etc... doesn't?  Do you intend 
> to learn Simula?

When you don't need such things and they are taking more than minimal
disk space, you should be abe to delete them too. 

However, human languages are fundamentally different. There is zero
chance that every major program will include a newsreader or TPU or
Simula. It is a near 100% certainty that every major program will
increasingly come with support for a large number of human languages.
If I accumulate 100 programs and there are 100 supported langaues I
don't understand, that would be 10,000 instances of language support I
don't need and can't use. I don't expect to have that kind of problem
with Gnus, Rmail, or Simula.

Anil Trivedi
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Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> writes:

> On Sat, Nov 16 2002, Kai Großjohann wrote:
> 
> > I have \usepackage{amsmath} in my document, and C-c C-e offers me
> > completions like align and gather.  Good.
> >
> > But C-c C-m does NOT offer \operatorname or \vskip.
> >
> > What's the story?
> 
> \operatorname was missing in `amsopm.el'.  I added it in CVS now.
> 
> IIRC \vskip isn't a LaTeX command (it's plain TeX), maybe you want to
> use \vspace instead?

This is AUC TeX, head development speaking.  If somebody puts
completion for \vskip, \hbox, \vbox, \halign, \valign and a number of
other stuff into the normal LaTeX modes, I will rip it right out
again.  We may discuss a special combined TeX/LaTeX completions
editing mode when you are working on *.sty files, but for normal LaTeX
source, the user should not get to see stuff he is definitely not
supposed to be using.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
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Kai Großjohann <kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de> wrote:

> At our site, we have a directory for software with subdirs for each
> program, and subsubdirs for each version.  For example, 
> 
>     ./configure --prefix=/usr/sw/emacs/21.2
> 
> is sufficient to configure Emacs in such a way that subsequent `make'
> and `make install' can be undone easily by just removing the
> directory /usr/sw/emacs/21.2.  This works because Emacs is the only
> program in that directory.
> 
> It's a very simple approach, but it works well enough for us.

I am a beginner at this, so let me understand step-by-step. If you
./configure with the above option, make, make install, will everything
remain in /usr/sw/emacs/21.2? Where do the binaries go? 

If it is /uar/sw/bin, I can imagine you can just put it in your path.
However, if it is /usr/sw/emacs/21.2/bin, then do you have to modify
the path each time you install a program? (I don't see either as a big
deal, I am just trying to figure out what actually happens.)

Thanks.

A
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 18:10:14 2002
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From: David Masterson <dmaster@synopsys.com>
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>>>>> Kai Großjohann writes:

> Bijan Soleymani <bijan@psq.com> writes:

>> In that case you might want to check out GNU stow. You put all your
>> software in a stow directory /usr/local/stow/ or /usr/sw/ one
>> program per subdirectory. Then when you run stow it makes symlinks
>> in /usr/local/. This way you can even do this sort of thing with
>> libraries or programs you would like to have in your path.

> I don't use Stow, but I think it's not a (complete) solution.  We
> have several versions of Java installed in /usr/sw/java, and some
> people need one version whereas other people need another version
> (on the same machine).

I haven't looked at Stow in quite awhile, but it should handle this in
theory.  If it does not, I have an alternative Perl package called
pkglink that works quite well.  Actually, you can get pkglink at:

* http://www.cs.unm.edu/~ssg/SSG_SysAdmin/SSG_Pkglink.shtml

But I've made some enhancements to it since this version (I think mine
is more in-line with automake).  Send me an email if you're interested.

> I'm thinking about making a directory /usr/sw/bin and populating it
> with symlinks, but currently, we don't have enough software packages
> to justify this effort.  (Happily, Debian provides lots of packages
> so we don't have to install too many of them.)

Pkglink can do the symlink farm with multiple versions.  It structures
the directory as follows:

* /usr/local
* Repository
** Package 1
*** Version 1
*** Version 2
** Package 2
*** Version 1
*** Version 2

So you can install as many versions of the software that you need by
just setting the configure "prefix" to the appropriate "Version"
directory before doing the "make install".  Then, using pkglink, you
can pick which version of a package gets symlinked into the main area
(/usr/local, but you could have more than one).

-- 
David Masterson                David DOT Masterson AT synopsys DOT com
Sr. R&D Engineer               Synopsys, Inc.
Software Engineering           Sunnyvale, CA
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 18:25:10 2002
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From: David Masterson <dmaster@synopsys.com>
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>>>>> Kai Großjohann writes:

> Most important of all, it's not clear what to delete.  There would
> be *endless* arguments about which files to remove and which files
> to keep.  Emacs consists of 2297 files (on my system), it's very
> difficult to untangle dependencies on them.

Thus the need to "package-ize" Emacs.  Then, to uninstall Emacs, you
uninstall all the packages and uninstall the base Emacs.  The notion
is that recursion takes care of the packages.

> Then the ask how to send mail, and I tell them to type M-x
> finder-commentary RET smtpmail RET.  This command prints some
> documentation which is extracted from the beginning of the file
> smtpmail.el.

> But they don't have that file installed!

At which point, finder-commentary should probably say that that
package is not installed and (perhaps) point the user to the Internet
(mirror) sites where they might find the package.

> So, even the simple idea of `people don't want to look at the source
> code, people just want to run the resulting binary' has failed!

There's a chicken and egg view in this statement.  One view of Emacs
is that it is a program and, therefore, everything you want it to do
should "just be there".  Another view is that Emacs is an O/S where
packages are installed on top of it and, therefore, there needs to be
simple tools to add those packages in.

> That said, XEmacs has the so-called package system which is a very
> nifty thing indeed.  You install a base package of XEmacs which can
> do almost nothing at all, and then you start installing XEmacs
> packages which contain the Lisp code for various things.  It's very
> easy this way to upgrade the packages that you have installed.

> But then, a lot of XEmacs users install the Sumo tarball I think
> which just contains all available packages :-)  (Caveat: I'm not an
> XEmacs user, so what do I know what `a lot of XEmacs users' do!)

XEmacs actually has two tools for this.  It's been quite awhile since
I used the UNIX tool for managing packages in XEmacs.  My typical
environment is to use the Cygwin-like install tool on Windows-NT to
manage XEmacs and it's packages.  That tool is a separate program from
XEmacs and, so, you don't have a chicken and egg problem that (I
believe) XEmacs has on UNIX.  That is, on UNIX, when installing XEmacs
for the first time, there is the question of what do you install so
that you have enough functionality to install all the other packages?
Many people opt-out of answering that by just installing the Sumo, but
thereafter they can use the package tool in XEmacs.

-- 
David Masterson                David DOT Masterson AT synopsys DOT com
Sr. R&D Engineer               Synopsys, Inc.
Software Engineering           Sunnyvale, CA
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 18:40:10 2002
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There is a fairly basic feature called set-selective-display which is
bound to `C-x $'.  Let me quote from the manual:

   "To hide lines, type `C-x $' (`set-selective-display') with a
   numeric argument N.  Then lines with at least N columns of
   indentation disappear from the screen.  The only indication of
   their presence is that three dots (`...') appear at the end of each
   visible line that is followed by one or more hidden ones."

It's simple, but it might work surprisingly well.

-Knut

-- 
Hard work often pays off after time.  But laziness always pays off now.
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Thu Dec 12 18:45:16 2002
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>>>>> Ajanta  writes:

> Kai Großjohann <kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de> wrote:

>> At our site, we have a directory for software with subdirs for each
>> program, and subsubdirs for each version.  For example, 
>> 
>> ./configure --prefix=/usr/sw/emacs/21.2
>> 
>> is sufficient to configure Emacs in such a way that subsequent `make'
>> and `make install' can be undone easily by just removing the
>> directory /usr/sw/emacs/21.2.  This works because Emacs is the only
>> program in that directory.
>> 
>> It's a very simple approach, but it works well enough for us.

> I am a beginner at this, so let me understand step-by-step. If you
> ./configure with the above option, make, make install, will
> everything remain in /usr/sw/emacs/21.2? Where do the binaries go?

A directory structure is created under /usr/sw/emacs/21.2 with a
standard layout for all the different parts (like 'bin' for binaries
and 'lib' for libraries).

> If it is /uar/sw/bin, I can imagine you can just put it in your
> path.  However, if it is /usr/sw/emacs/21.2/bin, then do you have to
> modify the path each time you install a program? (I don't see either
> as a big deal, I am just trying to figure out what actually
> happens.)

This is potentially true if you use _just_ this scheme.  In fact, if
you carry this to extremes such that each program is installed in it's
own directory structure, your PATH could become quite long.  However,
tools like GNU Stow build on this scheme by adding the ability to
symlink these directories (and subfiles) into the standard location
(typically /usr/local) so that your PATH need only have the typical
/usr/local/bin in it.  The tools like Stow can also move the symlinks
to a new version of the package or remove the symlinks altogether.  In
this way, by removing the symlinks and then removing the package's
personal directory, you are sure that all of that version of the
package has been removed.

-- 
David Masterson                David DOT Masterson AT synopsys DOT com
Sr. R&D Engineer               Synopsys, Inc.
Software Engineering           Sunnyvale, CA
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Anil Trivedi <anil@null.invalid> writes:
> But several issues *have* been raised here: (1) Don't waste disk space,
> (2) Enable users to safely delete either the functionality or files
> they know they don't need, (3) And include a complete uninstall script.

All these have been addressed in this thread (but it is true that the
people asking these questions keep squirming around and changing the
topic):
 
 (1) The added complexity necessary to actually do this manner is in
     most cases far more harmful than the wasted disk space (certainly
     emacs is pretty small compared to modern hard disks!).

     There _are_ certain parts of emacs which come in large monolithic
     easy-to-delete chunks (e.g., LEIM), which might be worth providing
     a `delete' option for, but I think they can dealt with on a
     case-by-case basis.

 (2) This is a very vague request (and whenever this issue has been
     raised elsewhere in this thread, the language used has been
     similarly vague).

     Allowing users to `safely and easily' delete _files_ is hard, given
     emacs' structure and history (if emacs had been designed from the
     start with this in mind, of course it would easier), and of little
     obvious benefit.

     Allowing users to delete _functionality_ is similarly hard, but
     probably more beneficial, in specific cases -- feel free to suggest
     places where you feel this should be done, and how the
     user-interface for this would work.

 (3) Emacs already has an uninstall function

> this is what I see on my system:
> 
>    anil% find /usr -name emacs -print
>    /usr/bin/emacs
>    /usr/info/emacs
>    /usr/libexec/emacs
>    /usr/local/bin/emacs
>    /usr/share/emacs
>    /usr/share/info/emacs

Um, that's how unix(-like) systems work.  Emacs did not decide this
layout, it merely follows it.  Feel free to complain, but it isn't
going to change anytime soon.

> > Why does this support for other languages bother you, whereas 
> > support for TPU-emulation, RMail, Simula, etc... doesn't?  Do you intend 
> > to learn Simula?
> 
> When you don't need such things and they are taking more than minimal
> disk space, you should be abe to delete them too. 

See points (1) and (2).

-Miles
-- 
Is it true that nothing can be known?  If so how do we know this?  -Woody Allen



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