Re: Software/HD ecology

[jdf23]

Lee Sau Dan <danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:

>     Anil> I think unix was conceptualized for small systems and
>     Anil> programs, where a user might know every file, where it came
>     Anil> from, what it does. 
> 
> Wrong.  Unix  has been designed  to be a  multi-concurrent-user system
> since  3 decades  ago.   Unix  systems used  to  be time-shared  among
> hundreds (in some cases thousands) of concurrent users.  Normally, the
> end users only  know about a few subtree of  the whole directory tree,
> and that's enough for his work.

Your sense of history is different. Some of us remember when you
couldn't find "hundreds" of people who knew what unix was, and in unix
at least, end users and beginning users were the same people. Even when
hundreds of users materialized, they didn't have FSF to download
programs from.

> That why we hav package management tools, like RPM on RedHat and SuSE.

Good for Red Hat and SuSE. Has it occured to you that there are other
flavors of Linux, other versions of Unix, not to forget Mac OS X since
the lead newsgroups in this thread are Mac groups?

>     Anil> Shouldn't you be able to know just what a particular file
>     Anil> named "dtabttf" doing on your system?  
> Unix programmers would have used a more descriptive filenames.

Merely from looking at their names, I certainly can't always decipher
what many of the unix files do. Nor can I always guess which program
they might come form.

> rpm -qf /etc/ntpd.conf

No good on most Unix or even Linux systems.
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Tue Dec 17 04:10:16 2002
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From: Fabian Rossbacher <info@dynamic-software.de>
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hi everybody,
reading some VI vs emacs i decide to use emacs...now i have
some questions and hope u can help me:
is there any php-mode avaible for gnu emacs?a list of php-functions for the 
emacs autocomplete function would be nice 2. has anybody found some german 
tutorials explaining how to edit .emacs and .gnu-custom..

                                                        best greez fabian
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Hi Kai,

Thanks for posting that sensible diagnostic, to create a file with
accented characters under ssh, then cat the file under kermit.

So, under ssh, i used the C-x 8 method for input, and
C-x RET t latin-1 RET to set the terminal display coding system,
per Eli.  Then, in a separate session under kermit, i catted the file.

Catting under kermit does not show the accents properly, but
it does correspond exactly to what emacs under kermit shows
when i set the terminal display coding system to latin-1.

So i suppose this makes it purely a matter of persuading
kermit to display certain characters more transparently?

dan


In article <84bs3mhvkj.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>,
Kai =?iso-8859-1?q?Gro=DFjohann?= <kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de> wrote:
>Create a short file with accented characters in it.  Then log in to a
>host with kermit and then do "cat foo" where foo is the name of the
>file with accented characters.  Do you see the accents okay in that case?
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kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) wrote in message 
news:<84wum9afn2.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>...
> simon@eurecom.fr (Carine) writes:
>
> Did you use Emacs 19 before?
> 
Yes but even on the 19 version, it doesn't work anymore.

> I suggest to remove everything about iso-syntax from your init file,
> and instead do C-\ then select the latin-1-postfix input method.
> 
> If C-\ emits an error message, post again.
Now, if I take the iso-syntax off, it doesn't want to load auc-tex
anymore.
And with the command you said, it does write letters with accent but
latex cannot interprete them.
How complicated sometimes...

Thanks,
Carine.
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marcel-sl@gmx.de (Marcel Schmittfull) writes:

> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
> switching between windows. Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 

One possibility is to use C-M-i instead of M-TAB.  This is not ideal,
I know.  The new KDE is supposed to be able to coexist with Emacs
better, but I find it's still not done, in KDE 3.0 at least.

I've written a little patch for Emacs (which will be in 21.4, whenever
that comes out) that allows you to tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.

With that patch, I use it as follows.  The keys labeled Alt generate
the Alt_L and Alt_R keysyms, the key(s) with a flag on them generate(s)
Meta_L (and Meta_R).  Then KDE sees the Alt keys as Alt and the flag
keys as "Win".  Then I can configure the KDE keybindings ("shortcuts")
so that Win-Tab can be used instead of Alt-Tab to switch between
windows.  (This is new in KDE 3 I think.)

And also, I tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.

Then I can use the keys labeled Alt as Meta keys in Emacs.

To find the patch you can look on savannah.gnu.org for the Emacs CVS
code.  The file is src/xterm.c and you can find it by scanning the
logs for my name.  This patch can be extracted from CVS and applied to
Emacs 21.2 (I've tested it with the 21.2.93 pretest which I'm
currently using, so I presume it works with 21.2 as well).
-- 
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ittay@qlusters.com (Ittay Freiman) writes:

> how can this be done? (i've tried using defcustom with :get, but
> simply evaluating the variable's value doesn't go through it). I don't
> want to make it local and set its values based in hooks.

But doing it via hooks seems the cleanest way to do it.  If your minor
mode can be turned off as well as on, then you can just add
turn-off-ittay-mode to the mode hooks where you want it off...

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Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology
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Ajanta <ajanta@no.spam> writes:

> When I run a command like "ls -l file" I can get a lot of information
> about a file's type, size, ownership, date created/modified. Whether
> that qualifies as a "log" to somebody or not is a rather dull semantic
> issue. The system does store and update information on files.

The "ownership" does NOT tell you whether the file belongs to Emacs or
to another program.  (At least, not in general.)

So you need something in addition to the "log" that comes standard
with Unix.
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Martin Schmitz <dosenfleisch@gmx.de> writes:

> Hey, c'mon, it's Unix. Of course one can change everything in KDE.

It's better now, but still not _quite_ perfect.  For example, the Win
modifier can only be used if you have a key that produces the Meta_L/R
keysym, not with Hyper_L/R.

Also, KDE really wants to use Alt for ...  hm.  What's the right word?
When it has a dialog box, some characters are underlined.  For
example, kprinter shows P_ropertiers, with r underlined, and so you
can hit Alt-r to access this button, instead of clicking on it.  It's
not possible to use something other than Alt for this, AFAIK.

It would be quite convenient if it was possible to tell KDE to use
Hyper -- then Emacs wouldn't see Meta keysyms and thus would use Alt
instead of Meta.

But as it stands, the patch I wrote is required.
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Subject: Re: accented characters in an xterm
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hitt@panix.com (Dan Hitt) writes:

> Thanks for posting that sensible diagnostic, to create a file with
> accented characters under ssh, then cat the file under kermit.
>
> So, under ssh, i used the C-x 8 method for input, and
> C-x RET t latin-1 RET to set the terminal display coding system,
> per Eli.  Then, in a separate session under kermit, i catted the file.
>
> Catting under kermit does not show the accents properly, but
> it does correspond exactly to what emacs under kermit shows
> when i set the terminal display coding system to latin-1.
>
> So i suppose this makes it purely a matter of persuading
> kermit to display certain characters more transparently?

Well, err.  It would have been even better if you could have created a
local file that also displays correctly (with Emacs and with cat),
then transfer it to the remote end (gzipped, perhaps, to make sure
it's not corrupted), then cat it there.

But yes, it appears that the problem is with Kermit.

Kermit has almost as many variables to tweak as Emacs, so maybe one of
them does the trick.

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simon@eurecom.fr (Carine) writes:

> kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) wrote in message
> news:<84wum9afn2.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>...
>
>> I suggest to remove everything about iso-syntax from your init file,
>> and instead do C-\ then select the latin-1-postfix input method.
>> 
>> If C-\ emits an error message, post again.
>
> Now, if I take the iso-syntax off, it doesn't want to load auc-tex
> anymore.

Please provide the exact error message and what you need to do to
produce it.  Also the contents of ~/.emacs might be helpful.
Otherwise, we are stabbing in the dark.

> And with the command you said, it does write letters with accent but
> latex cannot interprete them.
> How complicated sometimes...

Well, I always use

    \usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
    \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc}

to teach LaTeX about Latin-1 characters.  Maybe that works for you,
too?

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David Kastrup <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> writes:

> But how does one achieve that?  

Basically, it is as hard as writing a new primitive widget, which is
hard indeed.

I really ought to write some helper widget for recursive datatypes.