Re: Emacs ignores modified state of "untitled" buffer

[Tim X]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> > You've offered this as command `switch-to-new-buffer' and 
>> > put it on the `Buffers' menu as `Select New Buffer'.
>> > 
>> > I would prefer that it be considered an improved behavior 
>> > for `Visit New File', which is currently just `find-file'.
>> > The use of your command is, I think, for new file buffers
>> > only, so that intention should be reflected in both the command
>> > name and menu-item name. The `Buffers' menu is the wrong 
>> > place for this, IMO.
>> > 
>> > So I would suggest changing the command name to something 
>> > like `new-file' or `visit-new-file' and (more importantly)
>> > replacing the `File' > `Visit New File' menu item with it.
>> 
>> The term "visit" has a very specific meaning in Emacs, and 
>> switch-to-new-buffer doesn't actually visit a file
>> (buffer-file-name is nil).  I would prefer a name
>> like open-new-file, defined an alias for switch-to-new-buffer.
>
> OK by me.  But if you keep the original name also, I'd suggest modifying it to
> `switch-to-new-file-buffer'. It is a buffer intended for a new file; it is not
> just a new buffer.
>
> `open' is not really clearer here than `visit', but it is less specific.  It 
> is
> true that in Emacs we speak of "visiting" a file as reading its content into a
> buffer. 
>
> Whether `buffer-file-name' is nil at that moment, so the buffer is not 
> actually
> visiting a file yet, is less important than the purpose (use) of the command,
> which is to create a buffer that will be associated with a new file.  The 
> buffer
> switched to is intended for visiting a file, even if that file does not yet
> exist.
>
>> It seems to me the File menu entries are named backwards: 
>> "Visit New File" should be "Open New File", "Open File..."
>> should be "Visit File...", and "Open Directory..." should be
>> "Visit Directory..."
>
> IMO, `Open' in a menu item is OK for both existing and new.  But you are 
> correct
> that in Emacs jargon the more correct term for an existing file would be
> `Visit'.
>
> I would propose (and have proposed ;-)) simply `New File' as the menu item.  
> It
> is common nowadays to have a menu item `New' for creation when the object to 
> be
> created is clear, and `New Foo' to make clear that it creates a foo object.  
> (I
> use `New File' and `New Directory' in my own code, `menu-bar+.el'.)
>
> Whether we use `Visit' or `Open' for an existing whatever is not so important.
> What is important is to clearly distinguish the case of creation (`New').
>
>> > Those who are most likely to use such a menu item are 
>> > newbies who expect that behavior. Any Emacs veteran who prefers
>> > `find-file' will not be likely to use the menu and choose
>> > `Visit New File'. And it is clear what a `new-file' command is for.
>> > 
>> > I agree with Lennart that you should think about proposing 
>> > this to emacs-devel. I would support it, especially with the
>> > changes I just mentioned.
>> 
>> OK, we'll see how it goes.
>

I think I agree with Drew's points here. Just adding my 2 cents worth in
support. 

Having said that, I also want to highlight that this sort of nameing
stuff is very difficult to get right and we need to be very careful. I
agree with some of the criticisms of some emacs 'jargon' being old
fashioned or outdated, but I have also noticed that many of the
suggested changes are made by people who are ignorant of some of the
more subtle meanings that can be important, but wold be lost if ore
'modern' terminology is used. I also have a slight concern that
beginning to update terms to reflect current trends has the danger that
we will spend too much time chasing a moving target as trends change. 

Having modern' terminology is IMO less important than having consistent
terminology. 

It may be counter productive to use one set of terms on the menu for
'newbies' that are more familiar or in-line with those used on lesser
systems and sticking to older terms 'under the hood'. Most newbies that
stick with emacs for any time will at some point want to start
customizing and writing a bit of elisp. Having one set of terminology
for the menus and another for the functions/commands those menu options
run will make their life more difficult and frustrating.

Tim


-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au