Re: "like other editors" [was: Re: Poll about proposed change in DEL (aka Backspace) and Delete]

[Jeremiah Dodds]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 3:02 PM, ken <gebser@mousecar.com> wrote:
> On 10/04/2011 02:40 PM Jeremiah Dodds wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 7:44 AM, ken <gebser@mousecar.com> wrote:
>
>
> Dismissing logic, are we?  I suspect this is the reason for the S/N here
> approaching zero.
>

No, I was not dismissing logic. I was clarifying that the intended
meaning of the work "assumption" in my post was not the same meaning
as the word has when discussing formal logic.

> I not only was making it sound like that, that's exactly what I was saying.
>  And it was *all* that I was saying.  I said this because, in fact, two
> people posted in favor of the changes and for no other reason than the
> proposed changes complied with how 'modern editors' worked. Please re-read
> my original post and you'll see I already said this.

What other people seem to understand is that when those other people
proposed that the changes be made because other editors have that
behavior, there was most likely an unstated assumption that the other
editors did so for a reason and that the suggestion was not merely one
of wanting to be part of the cool kids club.

Even if those particular people *were* just wanting to feel like they
were using an editor that "belonged", it would still be worth
considering the change *because* of the likelihood of there being a
reason other than being fashionable.



>>  2.  The argument about wanting to avoid changes because they are
>> "appeals to fashion" can be applied to wanting to make the change with
>> just as much weight. Keeping the behavior just because "that's the way
>> it is" is just as much of an "appeal to fashion", it's just appealing
>> to the fashion current in Emacs.
>
> Not at all.  You're obviously not aware of the quite important principle of
> UI development which counsels against throwing surprises at users.
>

That's a hefty assumption. If that was the only "quite important" UI
principle, this discussion would never happen. Furthermore, I wouldn't
suggest just surprising current users with the behavior. There's a
reason we have changelogs and help documents and announcement lists
and so on -- if it's decided that it's worth making a change despite
the possibility of it being surprising to current users, steps can be
taken to minimize the number of users that *are* surprised. Also, that
principle also applies to trying not to surprise *new* users, which
the behavior does  for some.

>> The same flaw that is present in the whole of your argument is present
>> in that second point -- the arguments *for* keeping the behavior are
>> *not* as simple as "well that's just the way it is". The arguments
>> *against* keeping the behavior are also not just "but Mom, everyone is
>> wearing them!".
>
> Again, re-read my original post.  Don't try to put words or arguments in it
> that aren't there.  I didn't write what you quote above, nor did I even
> imply that.  So the "flaw" you're talking about is only in statements coming
> out of your imagination.

But you did state that the arguments for changing the behavior were
stated as being only because other editors had the behavior. You're
correct that they were *stated* that way, however that doesn't mean
that that's as far as the motivation for the change being something
worth considering goes, and it's not the spot to argue against making
the change from.