Re: [Help-gnunet] Measures Against Abuse not a topic of FAQ

[Jan Eichstaedt]

Hello ng0, hello list,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. Please read my comments below.

On 10/11/2016 06:14 AM, ng0 wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> sorry for top posting, I really see no way to split this up.
> I am not employed by inria and I am not working on the codebase but I am
> one of the volunteers working on/around GNUnet. So technically I do not
> speak on behalf of the GNUnet Project (I think you mean someone employed
> by iniria with this or the current project maintainer).
> It's possible I derailed myself in terrible ways with the reply below,
> so if anything is unclear reply here or offlist.
> 
> 
> When you read this thread and the answers so far, I'd say with the
> technical limitations of GNUnet in this regard the practical application
> of such basic democracy can only happen in the applications users will
> see in the end. Applications such as Secushare, Happyhydro and others
> (Happyhydro at this moment only plans to integrate GNUnet, they will get
> in touch sooner or later). Even then GNUnet might limit how much of or
> how easily the discussed ideas might be applied by the applications.
> 
> The following is even more my personal opinion and point of view:
> I initially found GNUnet in my very long search for the network I failed
> to create in a reasonable secure way, a network which will enable people
> in oppressive regimes to communicate, for activists to communicate in a
> safe way. Later I added additional goals: a network where an application
> can apply the safer-space and also to create an application / plugin of
> an application which creates an lgbtiq (and other inclusions) friendly
> date- and/or friendfinder network. Additionally to solve my frustration
> as a musician: something (or rather multiple somethings) to bring means
> of distribution, trade/sale/gifting, communication, web
> presence/profile, event calendars/booking, search of musicians for your
> band/project or other artists to collaborate with (not limited to music
> necessarily but also other artists).
> And then I got distracted by doing package and system creation.. But the
> motivation of my original goals is a 'power to the people' one.

Power to the people sounds very agreeable to me. Empowerment of people
to freely exchange their ideas is essential in their emancipation from
oppressive regimes. Humankind needs this -- in a humane way.

> 
>>> On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 11:42:33AM -0400, Jan Eichstaedt wrote:
>>>> Dear GNUnet Project:
>>>>
>>>> The other day I asked "why are Measures Against Abuse not a topic of the
>>>> project's FAQ?" When I describe the GNUnet to ordinary people (of
>>>> different nationality and background) and then that I would like to help
>>>> hacking on it, very similar questions arise:
>>>>
>>>> 'Wouldn't this be a perfect hiding-place or tool for <fill in
>>>> descriptions of very bad people>?'
> 
> My counterquestion would be: Do current corporate and free networks
> prevent this? You can see twitter enabling white surpremacy,
> racists. The federated social network diaspora suffers from equal
> problems. But at the same time they enable the communication of other
> groups which depending on whoever writes the law could get in much
> trouble for even communicating about it (pro-choice in poland,
> anarchists in netherlands, etc).

You have answered that question by yourself and one has to agree with
your answer: no.

> Can technology on its own solve a social problem by blocking the talk
> about it or applying other ways to prevent exchange of any information
> which is not desired by international/national laws?
> I believe this is not possible, it has to be a combination of social and
> technological approaches.

Yes, I think so, too.

> While technology is useful to solve certain problems, organize and
> unite, it also amplifies the "bad" people however you classify such and
> whatever they are for you. How useful will it be when certain
> discussions disappear into the underground where its more difficult to
> have a discussion between opposing points of view with the chance of
> a third uninvolved group of people learning from the outcome of this?

Preventing such discussions would not be helpful to anyone, ultimately.
This is not the place and now is not the time to draw a line between
free speech and inhumane propaganda. For now I just ask whether there
can be some text about the topic in the FAQ.

> I think the outcome of the discussion would be a useful addition to an
> FAQ, but I also think it should point out the limitations of the
> situation, that this problem needs to be challenged continuously in ways
> outside of technology.

If like this thought the most. If the GNUnet Project chooses to write up
an answer to my question, there should be given consideration to include
that the potential abuse for inhumane deeds needs to be challenged
continuously -- when building GNUnet as well as when using it.

> 
> 
> Because I've stated one group of "bad" for me before, I give one part of
> selfdescription/position of myself which is already known to those who
> collect such information because of exchange with others: My point of
> view/origin comes from my experiences as what could be roughly described
> as a genderqueer anarcho-syndicalist person. This does not explain the
> above described points, but it gives some indication why 'power to
> people' is an important factor for me.
> 
> 
> -- ng0



Best Regards,
Jan


> 
> Jan Eichstaedt <address@hidden> writes:
> 
>> Dear Lluís,
>>
>> Thank you very much for sharing your opinion. You reinforce my plea for
>> an answer on behalf to the GNUnet Project.
>>
>> Your point is well received with me. Perhaps the GNUnet Project would
>> prefer to have all the talk about a self-government in another email
>> list. After all, self-government is not a likely part of the GNUnet
>> Project's answer to my initial question.
>>
>> Just let me state one more thing about my idea of a self-government.
>> Ideally it might help to empower and emancipate "the weak" by by uniting
>> them.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/08/2016 06:56 PM, Lluís Batlle i Rossell wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I'm also not affiliated with GNUnet but I'll give my few cents.
>>>
>>> I agree that this makes for a good candidate for a FAQ. And then comes my
>>> view.
>>>
>>> As a technology provider, GNUnet allows the weak to be protected from the
>>> power. As some famous cryptopunk put it, cryptography is the only tool in
>>> hands of the weak that the power cannot break.
>>>
>>> The powerful can make guns, sell guns, decide what is good or wrong,
>>> publish mass books about the morality you should have and how to judge
>>> foreign affairs, etc. The powerful (landowners, politicians, authorities,
>>> police) use to be behind the arms traffic, the main paths of drug dealing,
>>> with war and and genocides. The powerful are those who do the greatest
>>> harm and in control of most technology, and crypto is the only technology
>>> in hands of the weak.
>>>
>>> Luckily, thanks to the spread of https, ciphered communications are not a
>>> reason to raise suspicion upon a user. Otherwise, the moto of the ruler
>>> "why do you want to hide me your things?" could have done much more harm.
>>>
>>> Crypto can also be used by the powerful, by whatever bad guys. But the
>>> main point here IMO is that crypto is the only tech thing that ALSO the
>>> good weak guys can use for their organisation and gathering. If there is
>>> no crypto protection (anonymity, secrecy, etc), the main endangered people
>>> by that would be the weak good guys.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Lluís.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 11:42:33AM -0400, Jan Eichstaedt wrote:
>>>> Dear GNUnet Project:
>>>>
>>>> The other day I asked "why are Measures Against Abuse not a topic of the
>>>> project's FAQ?" When I describe the GNUnet to ordinary people (of
>>>> different nationality and background) and then that I would like to help
>>>> hacking on it, very similar questions arise:
>>>>
>>>> 'Wouldn't this be a perfect hiding-place or tool for <fill in
>>>> descriptions of very bad people>?'
>>>>
>>>> I also had some conversation about this off-list (with people I only
>>>> will disclose if they allow) of which the following is an attempt to
>>>> summarize the current status of the question.
>>>>
>>>> The Question
>>>>
>>>> I would like to know whether the GNUnet Project already has or is
>>>> planning on any measures against using the GNUnet in inhumane ways, i.e.
>>>> using it to diminish human's "... right to life, liberty and security of
>>>> person." (UN General Assembly, 1948, §3). Thus, by inhumane I mean any
>>>> deed that is violating any of the human rights as adopted and proclaimed
>>>> by General Assembly resolution 217 A (III) of 10 December 1948.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me explain the wording of this question and why this is
>>>> fitting to a project like the GNUnet. My usage of terms like abuse, good
>>>> deeds, bad deeds and the like misled some. E.g., the word abuse led to:
>>>> "... seem to all be of a commercial nature". Unfortunately, abuse does
>>>> not stop there but goes way beyond. Thus, I now try to define what would
>>>> be good or bad and abridge it by "humane' and 'inhumane' respectively.
>>>>
>>>> Because a p2p net would span multiple nations, this definition needs to
>>>> be based on a broad consensus, i.e. across nations. The constitution and
>>>> law of which particular nation should apply?
>>>>
>>>> A p2p net has so much positive potential (not defined on purpose)
>>>> wouldn't it be great to diminish it's negative potential (see above for
>>>> a definition)?
>>>>
>>>> The Answer,
>>>>
>>>> or the attempts on it so far, I leave out, for now, because I would like
>>>> to know what people in the project are thinking. The outcome should be
>>>> an answer in the FAQ.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Jan
> 
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