Re: LYNX-DEV Re: tagging files, not URLs

[Foteos Macrides]

"gregory j. rosmaita" <address@hidden> wrote:
>aloha, fote!
>
>i guess i didn't know what i was asking when i asked for the download
>options page hyperlink, but perhaps it could simply say something
>along the following lines:
>
>                                                          Lynx Download Options
>
>                     DOWNLOAD OPTIONS (LYNX VERSION 2-4-2)
>
>   You have the following download choices.
>   Please select one:
>
>   [1]Save to disk
>
>   No other download methods have been defined yet.  You may define
>   an unlimited number of download methods using the lynx.cfg file.
>   Consult the online 'H'elp for more information about personalizing 
>   the lynx.cfg file.
>
>ok--so perhaps personalizing isn't the optimal word, but you get the
>point...
>
>and my point is that not alot of people know what the lynx.cfg file is,
>let alone what it does, how to use it, and how to force lynx to use a
>local lynx.cfg file...  the spartan termonology used on the current
>download options menu is too cryptic for the average user--not finding a
>lynx.cfg file when they list the files in their directory, they are likely
>to conclude that "this is something my sys admin needs to do"...

        It may or may not be something the user's sys admin needs to do.
That depends on whether the account has shell access or is captive, and
on a wide range of security consideration across the sites which offer
Lynx.  More importantly, you're seeking to increase the size of the Lynx
image simply to reiterate that a user should access the online help, read
the users guide and documentation, and repay the favor of making Lynx
available, by exercising personal inititate to become knowledgeable about
Lynx and the Web.  And it IS a favor to have Lynx available.  No one, to
my knowledge, has ever paid for Lynx, nor is anyone seeking to profit from
it.


>                                                                 and, if
>as i did when i was a net novice, they do email their sys admin they are
>likely to receive the same response i did (and which i forwarded to the
>list, but hicom.net was unable to connect to flora.org, so i can't cite
>the URL)
>
>       HUH?
>
>a response that evoked a sharp response from you fote, which eventually
>led to that server's version of lynx being upgraded from 2.37 to 2.4 a
>week and a half before 2.4.2 was released!

        What you're saying is that I did you a favor that first time...


>hell, here at hicom, i get them to upgrade by sending them the patches as
>they are issued, 

        ... and thereafter you've been helping yourself and other hiacom
users ...


>               but the universal lynx.cfg file still points to the 2.37b
>helpfiles at ukans, even though each patch is accompanied by a brand
>spanking new, updated lynx.cfg file for placement in /usr/local/lib

        ... but not yet enough to get the configuration file upgraded
together with the image.


>speaking of lynx.cfg files, is the lynx.cfg file backwardly compatible?

        Yes.


>will lynx just ignore any of the configurations that don't apply, 

        Yes.


>                                                               or have
>things changed so radically between 2.3 and 2.6 that version-specific
>lynx.cfg files are necesary?

        An important part of competent Lynx development is to keep
them cross compatible, though of course without an updated lynx.cfg
you can't change the default compilation settings for new symbols.


>and if the answer to the above question is "no",

        It is "yes".


>                                                then the lynx.cfg file in
>the "Documents from the Lynx Distribution" archive
>
>       http://www.crl.com/~subir/lynx/2.6/
>
>desperately needs to be updated, as it is so old (it's datestamped 3
>september 1996) that it points to 
>
>       http://www.nyu.edu/pages/wsn/subir/lynx
>
>subir, if fote and rob don't have any objection, would it be possible to
>keep this file updated (at least as current as hiram's update patch), so
>that when sys admins give in and upgrade, but forget to update the
>/usr/local/lib/lynx.cfg file and the usersdef.h files, individuals can 
>at least grab the most up-to-date lynx.cfg file for their own personal
>use?

        Subir has been outstanding in keeping up current, complete,
valid links to materials related to Lynx, and the current lynx.cfg
and userdefs.h, as well as the current online help, have been available
via "Lynx links" for some time.   The favor you are seeking (Subir is
not compensated monetarily for his Lynx-related activities) has ALREADY
been granted.  If you have not taken the initiative to check "Links
links", whose fault is that?


>i have an updated, speech-tailored default lynx.cfg and .lynxrc files at:
>
>       http://leb.net/blinux/blynx
>
>h t t p colon slash slash l e b dot n e t slash b l i n u x slash b l y n x
>
>which can be grabbed from the front page....  there is also a speech-tailored 
>2-6FM lynx.cfg file in the defaults/lynx2-6FM subdirectory--say the word
>(that is, whether or not using the 2-6FM will screw up someone who is
>stuck on a system using 2.3) and i will make it the default lynx.cfg file
>linked to the front page...

        All of that was included in the FM code set's online 'h'elp when you
first made it available, and is included in Subir's links as well.


>is the .lynxrc backwardly compatible, too?

        Yes, but a new .lynxrc is created whenever the user saves ('>')
options, so it is automatically updated for an updated image in conjunction
with the save.


>>      It's unfortunate that Al directed the discussion about the
>> your BLYNX efforts to the ListElves list, and that you did comply and
>> conduct the discussion there unbeknowst (sp? 8-) to the larger Lynx
>> community on either the lynx-dev or lynx-learners lists.
>
>well, i wouldn't blame al--i thought that listelves was an "official"
>sublist of lynx-dev, dedicated solely to the documentation and
>publicization of lynx...

        There was an appeal by me in lynx-dev, at that time and numerous
times before, to keep discussions about the development of the code, its
documentation, a real FAQ, etc., consistently within lynx-dev, so that
the various activities people were undertaking would not result in
fragmentation of Lynx development.  Al persisted in redirecting that
discussion to ListElves, which was his right.  In "volunteer" efforts,
we are all free to do whatever we choose with our "spare time".  It
is not an issue of blame, but of judgment.  Over time, we each develop
our own personal opinions about the quality of each others' judgment.

        The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  If Lynx goes
to hell, will it matter if it got there through malice, or on the
heels of well intentioned elves?


>> I am puzzled
>> by Al's recent statements, and also would prefer that you and the blind
>> users provide direct feedback.  I had reorganized the main help page
>> in accordance with what seemed the consensus in that discussion, and
>> under the impression that you would be continuing to maintain a help
>> file set optimized for the blind.
>
>i am, and i will--i have a postponed message on the subject lying in wait
>at leb.net, which i will be posting as soon as i log in over there after i
>finish up here (damn work!)
>
>> I thought you concurred with Subir
>> that there was no need to make the standard help as spacey as that
>> optimized for the blind.  I rereorganized the main help pages essentially
>> as in Subir's second draft.   The lines with more then one link have them
>> separated by '|' characters, as recommended in the accessibility guide,
>> which, of course, I read as carefully as I do RFCs and IETF or W3C drafts,
>> and I ensured that none of the lines would wrap or throw off the formating
>> when LINKS_ARE_NUMBERED is on.
>
>well, i have been remiss in not applauding your work (i've also been

        I have never sought applause for my involvement in Lynx
development, so you were not remiss.


>swamped with work that has kept me from paying as close attention to
>lynx-dev as i would like, 

        I doubt you are alone in being swamped with work, and there's
no question that lynx-dev has been excessively noisey, approaching the
character of a usenet group.


>                       which was the initial appeal of a sub-list such
>as listelves) and besides, i have my 'h' pointing at
>
>       http://leb.net/blinux/blynx/lynx_help_main.html
>
>the purpose of stretching things out, though, is to help those who don't
>have LINKS_ARE_NUMBERED on, because they don't know that you can turn it
>on...  and even with vertical bars between multiple links that occupy a
>single line are confusing, especially since the vertical bar is filtered
>out by a lot of screen readers when set to "say some" or even "say most",
>but yes, it does help (and so does listening carefully)
>
>> The "Speech-Friendly Help Files" link has
>> by far the longest string, is on it's own line, and should "stand out"
>> for audio or braille interfaces. 
>
>it does, and for that i thank you heartily...  i think that even i would
>have found a way of getting to it when i first got online and didn't know
>about numbered links and how to force lynx to SHOW_CURSOR (especially that
>now i'm using a screen-reader that allows me to search for text-strings
>with the voice cursor and route the pc cursor to it--something which i
>could do with my original setup)
>
>> In the case where the standard main
>> help is installed, a blind user would press 'h' and then the number of
>> that link to access your BLYNX file set, and presumeably you would make
>> it available for local installation via blind users' configuration files.
>
>yes--as i indicated above, this is alrealy so, but the user who doesn't 
>have numbered lynx on is still in the dark, if you'll pardon the pun... 
>
>but, this should be rectified by some intensive URL registering and
>propagandizing on blindness-specific lists and sites, which i've been

        Yes, that's how it should be rectified.  That's repaying a
freely granted favor by then helping yourself and others.


>holding off doing until i had time to go through the entire 
>Lynx_users_guide with a fine toothed q-tip and had time to get some
>feedback from the members of lynx-learners, lynx-dev, and listelves...
>
>> The two acronyms HTML and HTTP appear without definition, but I did
>> not anticipate that would be a problem since you also use them in your
>> file set without definition.  I also included the W3C acronym as follows
>> "The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)", which does define it.
>
>i figured that if someone didn't know what HTML or HTTP was, they'd simply
>follow the link to find out...  the second from last link on the second
>help screen defined (W3C), but i also just added the full name of the org
>to the help on URLs link, too...
>
>>      What I took away from that discussion ;(unfortunately on ListElves):
>> is that the PRE formatted diagrams of the navigation commands are much
>> less than optional for blind users, but the "Speech-Friendly Help Files"
>> link takes them straight away to your textual explanation, so I do not
>> see this as a case of needing to choose selectively between what is
>> optimal for the sighted versus blind, but instead we can offer both to
>> both.
>
>sounds reasonable to me...  would you be opposed to my linking the
>textual navigation pages to the speech-specific Lynx_users_guide.html?

        I'm not sure I understand your question.  I linked BLYNX into
the FM online 'h'elp back when I perceived consensus about it in the
ListElves discussion.  The complete standard and BLYNX help file sets
have been accessible to both sighted and blind users of the FM code
set for some time now.  That includes the links to your speech optimized
lynx.cfg and .lynxrc.


>>      Enjoy!
>
>i certainly do, and wouldn't be able to--hell, i'd be unemployed--if it
>weren't for lynx!

        I'm sure the claim that without Lynx you'd be unemployed is
hyperbole.  However, it is rewarding to hear that spare time spent
developing and explaining Lynx has indeed had some success in granting
enpowerment to people who might otherwise be blocked or excessively
restricted on the Web, be they blind or sighted.  On the other hand,
there are differences of opinion on basic objectives in Lynx development.
This is, of course, a personal opinion, but I do not think that in the
long run you are really doing anyone a favor if you accept the roll of
peoples' Momma, worrisomely holding their hand as they toddle on the Web.
You help people to help themselves, to be less dependent, not more.

                                Fote

=========================================================================
 Foteos Macrides            Worcester Foundation for Biomedical Research
 address@hidden         222 Maple Avenue, Shrewsbury, MA 01545
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