Re: [palito-dev] So then...

[Tom Barnes-Lawrence]

 Well, that's pretty impressive timing, I'd been just about to give up on
this project when you replied! Unfortunately I've been feeling really
crappy from lack of sleep, hence the late response.

 Also, I have to do some work on my site management software, which really
needs updating (as does my website, which uses it), so if I do anything
with Palito it probably won't be too much for the moment at least. But if
the project wakes up, I *am* willing to do something, whatever it is.


On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:20:56 -0300
Rodolfo Borges <address@hidden> wrote:

> Well, the not having time problem is more like a motivation problem.
> We allways have more things to do that the time avaiable, so it's a
> problem of motivation and priorities.

 As I say, I've had that sort of problem myself at times. My own main project
will probably take me years, and I'm the only one working on it. The only
way is to keep at it...
 If you find yourself not feeling like coding it for several months, then
that's not much different to the situation I've had often- there's nothing
wrong with taking a break. OTOH, the breaks probably need to be shorter in
a group project, else other people are likely to wander off! :D  I'm sure
there's ways to deal with these things though.


> > Even if we can't get any coding done at the moment for whichever reasons,
> > maybe we can still *discuss* things a little? Any problem with that?
> > If so, just say, please! :)
> 
> None at all.

 Well that's a start :) I was actually hoping to get some of the *other*
people here to discuss what might be done too, rather than just sit about
saying "Hmm, not much happening", but maybe that'll only happen if there's
signs that things are going to start again.

 I do wonder if like me, other people here would like to help, but don't
want to be the only person working on someone else's project? Perhaps if
everyone who *might* do something said what they might be willing or able
to do if the project started up again, then it'd encourage stuff to happen
in general? If so, here's my list of stuff I might do:

 -Working on my old IWR renderer a bit more, if it's still relevant to the
  project and I can discuss various issues with using it
 -Working on other software tools, such as a unit editor, map editor, or
  map tile editor; not sure how easily I could do these as I have little
  GUI experience, but I expect it'd be *possible*
 -Going through the code and writing descriptions for the functions and
  structures and things, to help the people who didn't write the thing
  themselves ;)
 -Helping to find bugs
 -Working on the Wiki in some way
 -Fixing the xlib version of flush (as the SDL version of it runs insanely slow
  on my machine when there's a few units built, and makes the game display lag
  by about a minute), *if* flush could be made back into a library again and
  got some comments for what all the functions and structures do
 -Discussing design issues
 -Debugging the game code, *if* an xlib version of flush can be sorted out
  (or maybe an OpenGL version if it's at least faster than the SDL on my
  G400 card)
 -Possibly working on making flush faster by replacing the interpreter with
  a compiler, using GNU Lightning (there's problems with that though, and I
  don't know if I could do it, but I've worked on interpreters before at least)
 -Maybe investigating making some sort of experimental AI client (I don't have
  much hope for this at all, my AI course was years ago and I didn't learn much
  before I dropped out; also, game playing agents are easier with turn-based
  games in cell-based worlds)
 -Maybe replace the client's console-based login procedure with a simple GUI
  similar to TA's? (shouldn't be too hard except I'd need to understand flush
  first!)
 -Figuring out ways to implement frame dropping in the clients for when they're
  lagging (I presume that's not already done, but I can't imagine the client
  buffers all the frames to be drawn somehow)
 -Investigate other speedups for flush (probably by profiling, but I expect
  the vector/matrix applications would turn out to be significant)
 -Maybe work on visibility/radar code?

 Again, these are just things that I *might* do, I'd probably only do 1 or 2
of those, and only if the project starts up again (or maybe if other people
were going to do some stuff to help). Hopefully we might hear from others
now (as some people have said they'd like to contribute)...


> I fixed that now. The duplicated entry was probably that I copy/pasted it to
> make a new entry, and leaved it half-finished. Haven't noticed until now. 
> Ops..

 Great, that might get a few people's attention now :)


> > Secondly, I know that there's a TODO file, but I'd assumed that Barrett 
> > being
> > stalled meant "There is a specific bit of code that I can't deal with", and
> > people who want to help often want to know if there's something immediately
> > important to do. What *is* the biggest problem in Palito ATM?
> 
> The biggest problem is, or was, the rewrite for the new client-server network
> model. It slowed down the steady progress that was going on other areas of the
> game.  It's more or less working, but there are some irritating bugs around.

 Well personally, I'd like to help find those bugs but find it difficult to
do anything much when the clients are running so slow (and it's extra slow
when I have to run 2 instances :P). Meanwhile, perhaps there's others who'd be
able to figure them out if you explained some of the bugs in more detail?
Then again, maybe there'd be no point unless new people show up or someone else
here says they'd be able to help, so I won't blame you if you don't.


> We can keep the main page static, a wiki for some other areas.

 That's a possibility I suppose, although I suspect that if the project gets
running again there could be enough people involved to fix spam as soon as it
happens, and that'd probably discourage spammers from trying any more.

 I might be willing to do some work on the Wiki if I'm not the only person
doing anything and there's some idea of what sort of things are needed. I
made some suggestions earlier, but nobody suggested anything else.

 Another thing that might go in, either in the Wiki or in the source, is a
set of descriptions for all the functions- that was one of the things
stopping me from trying to hack on the code itself, as it seems to have very
few comments. Some sort of simple explanation of how the main parts of palito
work (eg: server, client, flush renderer) might be useful too.


> zED is working a lot, even in other (comercial, I think) games.
> I don't even talk to him much moew lately.  I miss him, he was a good friend,
> and it was very good to code with him. Many of the progress on Palito was on
> long overnight coding sessions, with us switching the keyboard back and forth.

 That really sucks, I'm sorry to hear that :(  I still have some hope that
someone else will show interest in joining in coding though...

> I'm working, but not that much. Other "problem" is that I'm married now.
> But it's not that that will stop me from working on Palito again.

 Wow, congratulations! :) At least that's quite a good reason ;)  I hope you
*do* start work on Palito again, but obviously make sure you don't mess up
your marriage for the sake of a game or anything! Frustrating as it is to not
have a version of TA I can play on this machine, it's not *that* important...


> Yeah, this hibernation period happened (is hapening?) for lack of motivation.
> I looked at the code, and just don't fell like working on it again.
> But that also make me feel bad. Your project is like a son to you, and
> having other people interested just raise your responsability on it.

 I know exactly what you mean there... but is there anything in particular
about the project that makes you not feel like working on it? Something
frustrating about it, or uninspiring? Alternatively, it might be the fact
that you're feeling bad about not working on it that puts you off- the only
reason you should be working on Palito, is that *it is cool*, not that you
think you have any obligation to a bunch of random people.


-Tomble
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