Recording invoices payments customers

Dernières modifications

Raphaël Doursenaud (rdoursenaud)

16/10/2013 00:39 (Europe/Paris)

tl;dr FACTURE_DEPOSITS_ARE_JUST_PAYMENTS should be the default behavior in Dolibarr

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Yeah, from my experience bookkeepers never agree on anything but one of them is breaking the rules.
Just remember that the original reporter for this bug has more than 20 years of experience in « Cabinet d'Expertise Comptable » (Accounting firm).
The only way to get things right is just like with software : look at the code and confront with facts. One side generally don't stand long!

So, let's take a look, shall we ?
Art 289 du CGI : http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=8F9CB4E612F66A56354420361B72B3A0.tpdjo06v_1?idArticle=LEGIARTI000027517898&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006069577&categorieLien=id&dateTexte=20131015
What does this text tell us ?
Deposit invoices are mandatory except for some very specific cases (Mostly when selling outside the country and for some obscure VAT exempted products)

Then, let's look at facts.
Rules of deposit invoices processing in french accounting :
- deposit invoices does NOT generate turnover, this is why FDAJP=off is BAD!
- deposit invoices should NOT appear in ledger books, only the treasury movement is to be registered, another reason why FDAJP=off is BAD, see below
- VAT on deposit invoices is collected for services
- VAT on deposit invoices is _not_ collected for products

Having FDARJP=on causes these side-effects on accounting :
- The deposit invoice has to be included, yet we shouldn't !
- The final invoice has a _negative_ line : unsolvable conflict for accounting where all amounts should be positive! What am I supposed to do with this negative line?

In fact, and this is my personal belief, deposit invoices shouldn't be called invoices but receipts. They share almost no common ground besides the mere surface.

The conclusion of our analysis is pretty clear : FDAJP=on is the way to go and should be the default setting. It has way less disadvantages and is easier handle.
Of course this means we need to take this into account for the turnover reports and VAT calculations, but these are sensible things to do.

I'm ready to hear Dolibarr's foundation bookkeeper arguments against FDAJP=on. I understand you trust him but we need to prove him wrong!

Cheers

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État

Détails
Submitted by:	Jean-Pierre Doursenaud (jpdoursenaud)	Submitted on:	03/10/2012 17:24
Last Modified On:	15/10/2013 22:30
Summary:	Recording invoices payments customers
Description:	Menu Compta/tréso, Rapports : Les factures d’acompte client ne doivent apparaître ni dans le journal des ventes, ni dans le chiffre d’affaires. Il n’y a pas d’obligation de les enregistrer, l’enregistrement comptable constate uniquement le règlement en trésorerie. Source : Mémento Pratique Francis Lefebvre Comptable &656 Traduction Google documents Menu Accounting / Tréso, Reports: Invoices payment customers should not appear in the sales journal or in the sales. There is no obligation to register, recording accounting only recognizes the cash settlement. Source: Practical Handbook Francis Lefebvre Accounting &656
Step to reproduce bug:
Version:	3.4.0	Category:	Other
Severity:	7	OS Type/Version:
PHP version:		Database type and version:
Etat
Status:	Open	Assigned to:	Aucun
Resolution:	Remind

Commentaires

Raphaël Doursenaud 16/10/2013 00:39: tl;dr FACTURE_DEPOSITS_ARE_JUST_PAYMENTS should be the default behavior in Dolibarr

---

Yeah, from my experience bookkeepers never agree on anything but one of them is breaking the rules.
Just remember that the original reporter for this bug has more than 20 years of experience in « Cabinet d'Expertise Comptable » (Accounting firm).
The only way to get things right is just like with software : look at the code and confront with facts. One side generally don't stand long!

So, let's take a look, shall we ?
Art 289 du CGI : http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=8F9CB4E612F66A56354420361B72B3A0.tpdjo06v_1?idArticle=LEGIARTI000027517898&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006069577&categorieLien=id&dateTexte=20131015
What does this text tell us ?
Deposit invoices are mandatory except for some very specific cases (Mostly when selling outside the country and for some obscure VAT exempted products)

Then, let's look at facts.
Rules of deposit invoices processing in french accounting :
- deposit invoices does NOT generate turnover, this is why FDAJP=off is BAD!
- deposit invoices should NOT appear in ledger books, only the treasury movement is to be registered, another reason why FDAJP=off is BAD, see below
- VAT on deposit invoices is collected for services
- VAT on deposit invoices is _not_ collected for products

Having FDARJP=on causes these side-effects on accounting :
- The deposit invoice has to be included, yet we shouldn't !
- The final invoice has a _negative_ line : unsolvable conflict for accounting where all amounts should be positive! What am I supposed to do with this negative line?

In fact, and this is my personal belief, deposit invoices shouldn't be called invoices but receipts. They share almost no common ground besides the mere surface.

The conclusion of our analysis is pretty clear : FDAJP=on is the way to go and should be the default setting. It has way less disadvantages and is easier handle.
Of course this means we need to take this into account for the turnover reports and VAT calculations, but these are sensible things to do.

I'm ready to hear Dolibarr's foundation bookkeeper arguments against FDAJP=on. I understand you trust him but we need to prove him wrong!

Cheers
Laurent Destailleur 15/10/2013 22:30: According to dolibarr foundation bookkeeper, FACTURE_DEPOSITS_ARE_JUST_PAYMENTS off is better just because sum of invoice is egal turnover, there is no need to include some invoice for some calculation sometimes and exclude other for other king of calculation. It is same for vat calculation (no need to calculate vat of deposits to extract them to count it twice). But he agrees that using the other method is also an accountancy correct way of working.
So I don't think there is a true mode since book kepper themself disagree.

But you are right, because 2 modes seems to work correctly (even if i am not really sure for vat calculation into tax module when option is on however), we could add the option as a visible option of the "customer invoice" module. The most difficult will be to explain end user what are differences... I think a text with example is the only way to have a clear explanation.
Raphaël Doursenaud 15/10/2013 18:34: Well, we still disagree here at GPC.solutions and it's giving us headaches regarding how to export these data for accounting in our module.

We still believe that FACTURE_DEPOSITS_ARE_JUST_PAYMENTS=1 should be the default.

At the very least this option shouldn't be hidden anymore and available in the invoice module's configuration interface with a clear explanation of the implications for each mode.
Laurent Destailleur 03/05/2013 18:34: I asked the book-keeper of the Dolibarr foundation:
- For credit note: The two method can be used (use credit note as a payment or as a line of invoice).
- For deposit: Dolibarr manage deposits are correct (FACTURE_DEPOSITS_ARE_JUST_PAYMENTS on and FACTURE_DEPOSITS_ARE_JUST_PAYMENTS off). I will ask what is better and more frequent to define what should be defautl value of option.
Maxime Kohlhaas 07/03/2013 09:06: My guess is that deposits are payments in advance and the invoice created for this must be seen as a simple receipt for the payment.
I think FACTURE_DEPOSITS_ARE_JUST_PAYMENTS should be on by default
Maxime Kohlhaas 25/01/2013 16:36: I just discovered this hidden option and I must say that's exactly how I need it to work.
Have a deposit added as a line in the final bill was not good to me.
Thanks.
Jean-Pierre Doursenaud 07/01/2013 12:19: En droit français, les factures d'acompte ne font pas partie du chiffre d'affaires, ne rentrent au CA que les opérations réalisées.
Le deuxième comportement est donc celui attendu. En conséquence, les factures d'acompte devront être retirées du journal des ventes.
Laurent Destailleur 08/11/2012 12:12: By default, when we make a 10 deposit and an invoice to sell 100, dolibarr create
* a deposit invoice 10
* an invoice 90 (that is 100 with deposit discount).
So to have correct turnover we include deposits into reports.

If option FACTURE_DEPOSITS_ARE_JUST_PAYMENTS is on, when we make a 10 deposit and an invoice to sell 100, dolibarr create
* a deposit invoice 10
* an invoice 100 (and a payment coming from deposit).
In this case, deposit is not included into reports.

Dolibarr support the 2 ways of working. This does not change only the reporting, it also change the way workflow works (deposit is added as a negative invoice line by default, deposit is added as a payment if option FACTURE_DEPOSITS_ARE_JUST_PAYMENTS is on).

Question is, what is the good way of working ?
For the moment, option FACTURE_DEPOSITS_ARE_JUST_PAYMENTS is off by default.