Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Fwd: Libre Business for the Planet

[Logan Streondj]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:25:39PM +0100, Thomas HARDING wrote:
> On 11/03/2015 18:09, Logan Streondj wrote:
> >
> >about SPEL:
> >here is the main project site:
> >https://sourceforge.net/projects/spel/
> 
> >On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 07:59:20PM +0100, Thomas HARDING wrote:
> [with my tedious English]
> >SPEL currently already supports 25+ linguistic universals.
> >Though for simplicity the input language is analytic,
> >where the grammar words are seperated from the vocabulary words,
> >such as in Japanese, Chinese, Hebrew and to lesser extent English.
> >
> 
> One good point to that project is : it follows native character sets
> (probably text direction too).
> 
> *In fact, the best language fitting your goal would be an
> "Espéranto" derivative.*

Esperanto is not suitable as a machine translation pivot language,
it requires too much inflection, has long words, and sparse
vocabulary.

> As far as I having make programs, current advantage I give to Englsh
> is : each language keyword is
> "enclosed" by an unambiguous sense. Programmatically unambiguous.
> 
> Moreover, in my attempts to translate some RFC's, some terms are
> defined unambiguously by long
> definitions (MUST, MUST NOT, MAY...). So unambigueously that
> preliminary definitions
> has now their own RFC document.
> 
> i give such French sample sentences later, as your samples souds
> like (at least in French) Pidgin

sure,  a simplified form of French.

> (to a French they just look likes a complete mess).

Like I mentioned, the input language may take days or weeks of
training in order to learn to use it. It probably took you more than a
glance to learn how to use your first programming language, it may
have "looked like a mess", before you understood it.

The conjugated output will continue to improve it's approximation of
"natural" French as more French developers get interested in doing so.

> To produces that
> by hand I'd need probably
> one of the numerous automatic translators we can found aroun the Ternet.

Yes, you would probably need to learn how to use the input language,
and at least initially keep the API or available word-definitions 
nearby.

> Russian has for grammar basis declension.

It also has prepositions which can easily fill the same roles.

> >So let me give 2 examples,
> >a hello world, and a simple sentence:
> >
> >be say ob tha hello world ya
> >
> >"be" indicates the verb phrase,
> >"ob" indicates the grammatical-object,
> >"tha" is the kind of "that" which starts a subordinate clause,
> >"ya" is sentence-final-particle analagous to a period.
> >
> That is definitely non-natural language.

Actually it is a programming language,
based on multiple natural languages,
it makes every language equivalent, 
by including all the functional 
grammar which is found in any of them. 

be/ob/ya are found in Japanese as parts of the language,
sentence-final particles like ya are also found in Korean and Chinese.
ob is also found in Hebrew.

Having adpositions for every noun and verb-phrase
is used for simplicitly and uniformity of parsing,
it may take some time to get used to, but like I said,
there is likely several days or weeks to learn these extra few words.

> >here it is in the 6 UN langauges,
> >plus mwak which is the pivot language:
> >
> >eng : be say ob tha hello world ya
> >zho : 世界 您好 之 对象 说 是 啊
> >spa : ser decir ob que hola mundo sí
> >ara : يكون قول أوب ثا مرحبا عالم يا
> >rus : быть сказать о то привет мир да
> 
> >fra : être dire ob que bonjour monde ya
> A human comprehensive French sentence would be :
> 
>  "Cet objet dit : « Bonjour au monde entier »."

actually that is a different statement, meaning:
this object says "hello to the entire world".

the "this object" is a dummy variable, superfluous to this statement.

in analytic (SPEL) English:
su this object be say ob 
quote phrase hello to the entire world phrase unquote ya

which is different than "hello world" of course,
hello is a vocative preposition, there is no need for au,
just as I would say "bonjour Thomas", not "bonjour au Thomas"

monde is world, that is enough, people is gens,
the SPEL input language has 1 meaning per word,
even if the "natural" variety may be ambigious.

btw, it is a speakable programming language, so there is no
punctuation, for the input language anyways. the conjugated form can
have it.

> 
>   moreover
> 
> "Ceci dit « bonjour au monde entier »" (That says: "Hello World").

a bit closer, but still uses a dummy variable..

Do you know of a word, that is the same as the "that" in English for
subordinate clauses? such as used in the preceding sentence.

according to my research it is que,
haven't found anything better.

>  or precisely:
> 
> """"
> On inscrit par cette définition « Bonjour au monde entier » ; dans
> le cas où le périphérique de sortie serait un
> synthétiseur de paroles, la déclaration « inscrit » sera remplacée
> par « prononce ».
> """"
> 
> Formally and complete :
> 
> """"
> L'objet déclaré dans cette phrase a pour fonction de faire
> apparaître les mots "Hello World", à un endroit et par des moyens
> non encore définis.
> """"

the long translations significantly reduce the expressive power 
of the French language.
If French people had to type out something so long, in order to write
a hello world program, it would significantly reduce their productive
capacity as computer programmers and communicators on the world stage.

> >fra : su moi être aller à la boutique pour pain ya
> su(jet) : Je me suis rendu à la boutique afin d'acheter du pain.

again, this adds extra information which was not in the original,
but also taking some away. this effectively says:
I make to the shop so-as-to buy bread.

we don't know I want to buy bread, 
maybe I will bake it, or protest it's removal.
Also we know that I "go" to the store, there is no reason to lose that
in translation.

> Curiously, I authored  in Bash for training-course purpose a
> "acheterpain"/"bybread" command, with an extensive set of
> options/arguments/, producing mail, message (msg y), ... and sms
> (thanks to gsmutils gsmsendms).
> 
> Goal was to make students understands the "verb complements
> subjects" general syntax of shell commands,
> moreover to produce human comprehensive texts depending on gender,
> age, with for fallback ...the house dog;
> 
> >mwak : panp plu mi .u tsuk sa ta kiy .i ya
> >
> >currently there is also primitive conjugation support for output,
> >makes it look a little more natural:
> >
> >eng :  I be go to the shop for bread.
> >zho : 面包 为 我 去 是 店 该 到 啊
> >spa :  soy ser ir a la tienda para pan.
> >ara : يكون اذهب أنا إلى ال متجر سبيل خبز.
> >rus :  я быть идти к эт магазин для хлеб.
> >fra :  je être aller à la boutique pour pain.
> same...
> >mwak : panp plu mi .u tsuk sa ta kiy .i ya
> >
> >conjugation is currently translation-memory bases,
> >so basically a simple search and replace (su me becomes I).
> >
> >better conjugation will be added after compiling down to programming
> >languages works at a functional level.
> >
> 
> What must compile nicely..

not sure what you mean by that

> 
> >CWEB is literate programming, which is a fancy name for saying it is
> >easier to write comments than code. Makes it more like writing a
> >scientific paper, with a few formulas.
> >
> In other words, a manner to "SAY" constantly what it will "DO".
sure, though the comments are completely disregarded by the compiler
as usual.

from Logan ya