Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)

[Yasuaki Kudo]

With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons movement", if 
you will, a community where people learn together and rebuild a new 
collaborative society based on partnership of the equals, and I stress this 
term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero "come back later when you know 
know how to ask better questions", zero knowledge worshipping, zero founder, 
zero leadership - initially focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the 
movement.

 In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement will be 
welcome!  They are not only welcome but will probably form the backbone of the 
society.

Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such as the 
twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this.

In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an important part but 
it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus.

Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the software 
requirements of the community will require that kind of licensing as the bare 
minimum standard.

But it won't be just married to Free Software, either.   The software licensing 
is just a part its concern and it will also have discussions of how to take 
advantage of proprietary systems.

IPhone maybe a totally locked system but it doesn't stop us from accessing 
homepages built with Free Software.   Windows is proprietary but WSL2 makes 
available a Linux subsystem on top of it.

Gradually transitioning from Proprietary to Free is a perfectly good strategy, 
in my opinion.  If I may add, what else is a proprietary system good for, other 
than to make the transition to the Free? 

If anyone reading this is interested, you can contact me personally 😄  - let's 
make it happen!

-Yasu +81.90.6523.2640 yasu@yasuaki.com http://yasuaki.com

On May 23, 2022, at 01:24, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> * Erica Frank <e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-19 22:30]:
>> It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has little
>> interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer public, and
>> this reply just reinforces my belief.
> 
> That is not true.
> 
> That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively true.
> 
> Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large
> companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo,
> including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is very
> out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little
> interest" in outreach to general public.
> 
> We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel.
> 
> GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman
> https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
> 
> But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only, there
> are many many online references guiding people to install GNU/Linux on
> their computers.
> 
> How to Install Linux
> https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows
> https://www.educba.com/install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
> https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux
> 
> How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop
> https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US
> https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F
> 
> How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC
> https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html
> 
> How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks
> https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022]
> https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-windows-10.html
> 
> How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How
> https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac
> 
> How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide
> https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linux-a-beginners-guide.html
> 
> How to install Linux - CNET
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim
> https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How
> https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows-10
> 
> Install WSL | Microsoft Docs
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install
> 
> How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com
> https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-installed/
> 
> How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com
> https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation
> 
> How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US
> https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc
> 
> The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com
> https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-linux/
> 
> ▷ Linux Tutorial For Beginners | Step By Step Linux Guide 2022
> https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial
> 
> A Beginners’ Guide to Linux
> https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/
> 
> Linux Tutorial | A Basic Guide to Linux For Beginners
> https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tutorials/linux-tutorial/
> 
> Beginner's Guide to Linux System Administration - GeeksforGeeks
> https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-administration/
> 
> Introducing Linux: Ultimate Beginner's Guide
> https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide/
> 
> The Linux command line for beginners | Ubuntu
> https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview
> 
> UNIX / Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Learn Online in 7 days
> https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html
> 
> Linux Tutorial for Beginners - Learn Linux and the Bash Command Line
> https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/
> 
> How to Learn Linux: A Step-By-Step Guide | Career Karma
> https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/
> 
> Beginners Guide To Using Linux - A Linux command cheat sheet | Linuxlookup
> https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux
> 
> Beginner Geek: How to Start Using the Linux Terminal
> https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-the-linux-terminal/
> 
> A Beginner's Guide to Linux – The Midphase Blog
> https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/
> 
> A Beginner's Guide to Getting Started in Linux
> https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beginners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux
> 
> Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Introduction to Linux Operating System - YouTube
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8
> 
> A Beginner's Guide to the Linux Command Line | TechSpot
> https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/
> 
> Beginner's guide to Linux: where to start | TechRadar
> https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner-s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778
> 
> The above list is just a fraction of references, easily to find within
> 10 seconds of work. It is my Dynamic Knowledge Repository that stores
> the information and that helps me to quickly reference it:
> 
> Hyperscope - Dynamic Knowledge Repository
> https://hyperscope.link/index.html
> 
> About Dynamic Knowledge Repositories (DKR)
> https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/
> 
> Thus one can objectively conclude that large number of largest
> companies, users and developers are interested to help beginners to
> get along with GNU/Linux systems.
> 
>> Stating that support for free software " is done on numerous mailing lists,
>> forums, IRC" - is not helpful.
> 
> I understand that you could not get help, sorry, I cannot know why
> exactly, maybe is problem with searching on Internet, or maybe
> accessing different ways of getting help.
> 
> There are also professionals who will come to your home and help you
> with whatever free software. You pay for service, and you get
> assistance. If you tell me where you are located, I can definitely
> find you people who can come and personally help you with
> installations or software. There are those teaching others
> computing.
> 
>> Yes, I can review the list of free software distros and install one
>> and go looking for support if I need it. But why would I?
> 
> Opps, I am reading your emails while answering. So you mean, that
> there is nothing for beginners, or you mean there is something for
> beginners, and you already found it, but it is not helpful because you
> would not install it. That is quite a different issue.
> 
> Nobody forces you to install anything. Who said GNU/Linux is for
> everybody. You have plenty of choices for computing, it is all your
> choice. 
> 
>> I don't see any value in switching from Windows to Linux, other than
>> an abstract sense of "I would not be supporting Microsoft's
>> attempted monopoly."
> 
> While it is not important for you, many people do understand the
> importance of free software.
> 
> What is Free Software? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> And if you do not see the above free software freedoms as important,
> feel free to continue with proprietary software. It is your life, your
> information, your computer. 
> 
> There may be some other arguments for free software:
> 
> What Is Linux and Why Is It Important?
> https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/
> 
> Why Use Linux? Here are the Reasons Why You Should
> https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/
> 
>> (My adult daughters both use Linux because they were increasingly annoyed
>> with Windows' invasive OS. However, I use Windows for work; I don't have
>> the option to switch entirely. Several programs I use don't have Linux
>> versions, and my daughters' experiences with WINE make me leery of trying.
>> I can't afford to run into snags that take several hours to fix as I wade
>> through various help forums trying to find the one that has an answer that
>> actually works.)
> 
> That is how it is, life is not a dream.
> 
>> Ah. It sounds like you have infinite time available to work on software
>> projects, instead of using software to do things.
> 
> But how do you know it?
> 
> Did you ever come on idea that reason why developers develop software
> is because they are themselves using it to do things?
> 
> For example, I am developing my database, but probably 99.9% of time I
> spend using the database. The things I do are such as recording
> geographic positions, images, field reports into the database, any
> kind of information, indexing, then relating it to people, assigning
> tasks, projects, sending SMS from computer, initiating phone calls
> straight, faster from computer with quick to edit notes. Some of
> things I do is about to help Italian investors purchase coffee from
> Uganda, Russian people to find their gold mining sites, some
> individial businessmen to start their businesses. So I gave you on my
> personal example, how the time is available to do things.
> 
>> "Just search for a list of options, pick one of the three dozen
>> results, install that one, search for its help forums, figure out
>> how to join the relevant email lists, and ask for help; make sure to
>> provide the technical details they require and search for
>> definitions of the vocabulary used in the responses."
>>> 
>> That's fine for a personal project; it utterly fails as a premise for a
>> school or business switching to a less-popular OS. Again: Why would they
>> bother? They have an OS that works.
> 
> That such informational resources utterly fail like you say is unknown
> to me. But how do you know it?
> 
> Free software is not there for reason to be popular, more or less
> popular, the reasons I gave you are four freedoms. I do understand
> that people are drawn by what is popular, and that there are many
> other reasons for choices.
> 
> The role of Linux and computers in schools
> http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
> 
> Linux in Indiana Schools
> http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/
> 
> Indiana schools enroll Linux - CNET
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll-linux/
> 
> Which Linux distributions are best for schools? | Open School Solutions
> https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-best-for-schools/
> 
> Best Educational Linux Distros for Children & Schools [2022]
> https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/
> 
> The role of Linux and computers in schools
> http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
> 
> That it utterly fails in schools can't objectively be said. 
> 
> Then if you are only in the US and speak only English, you may not
> have access to information in French, Italian, German and other
> foreign language speaking resource to understand how much GNU/Linux is
> used in schools.
> 
> Example:
> Linux in der Schule – Freie Open Source Software in der Schule
> https://linux-bildung.at/
> 
> For business I should not tell anything, we know that 56% developers
> are using GNU/Linux, those developers work for businesses.
> 
> In fact, you are using Gmail service that runs on GNU/Linux. That is
> far from Linux-based systems and "utterly" failing in businesses.
> 
> (13) Which Linux distribution does Google run on its production servers? - 
> Quora
> https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run-on-its-production-servers?share=1
> 
>> I do book publishing. I use InDesign for layout. I use Word to set up
>> documents with styles that import to InDesign. InDesign doesn't import
>> LaTeX docs, and a quick check says LaTeX won't save out as .doc.
>> I did some research into using LaTeX for layout, but could not confirm that
>> it had the necessary layout features. Most crucial was having standard text
>> lines match position across columns and pages, regardless of any irregular
>> formatting included. I remember also hearing about issues with
>> headers/footers, but the leading match was the key issue that convinced me
>> to stop looking at it.
> 
> Those are probably funamentally different tools, one is proprietary,
> other one LaTeX is free software running on any operating system, one
> is visual, other one is text setting software. They are hardly to be
> compared. But OK.
> 
> What you mention as most crucial reminds me of LaTeX features. 
> 
> I do not think that for quick visual placement of pictures and text,
> one shall use LaTeX. but it is possible, more visual tool is:
> 
> Get Scribus – Scribus
> https://www.scribus.net/downloads/
> 
> in connection with Gimp and Inkscape.
> 
> We are in different mind sets, as if you do not find a feature you
> need, you grab and stay with proprietary software.
> 
> And me, if I do not have a feature that I need, I find it and find
> solution and make it happen.
> 
> Because there is GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, TeX and LaTeX, there is
> LibreOffice, then me personally really satisfy all my graphics and
> desktop publishing related needs. 
> 
> But my mind set is different, as if I cannot get things done on
> GNU/Linux, I get things done on GNU/Linux. 
> 
> For me, proprietary software is not an option. 
> 
> Though on mobile phones is almost impossible to avoid it. And we use
> such phones in business. But then all proprietary software and Google
> applications get blocked, and researchers are sent to field, working
> with free software.
> 
>> Maybe it could work. But I'm not putting dozens of hours into
>> researching and learning the program to find out it can't. I need
>> complex and specific layout options, and searching the web has not
>> turned up info on whether LaTeX or other programs has those
>> features.
> 
> Learning is required.
> 
> I can tell you one thing -- back in 1999 I have been accomplishing any
> graphics needs with GNU/Linux like I am doing it today 2022. I was
> using back in time if I remember well, just XFig software, and I did
> make money with it, I have beend disseminating posters and flyers all
> over Stuttgart, Germany.
> 
>> I am not saying "everyone needs Word & similar programs." (Certainly not
>> saying "everyone needs InDesign or similar.") I'm saying that I haven't
>> found open-source software, much less free software, that covers my
>> professional document needs. That problem carries over for most businesses
>> and most schools.
> 
> You have not made specific request, maybe you should. 
> 
>> "People should be using markup instead of WYSIWYG" is a fine philosophical
>> statement but does absolutely nothing to convince people to use the
>> software. (Especially when support for markup languages varies greatly by
>> device and software.)
> 
> I don't think markup and visual tools do the same purpose. Anyway,
> make your specific request, there must be way to solve that issue of
> margins you said.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
> 
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