On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Karsten Hilbert
<address@hidden> wrote:
> I was wondering if there were plans to abandon Texlive packages (as well
> as
> Korganizer and KonsoleKalendar) as dependencies/recommends/suggests in the
> Debian and Ubuntu packages.
There are no such plans. We just added TeX with 0.6. You need TeX to
print medication lists and letters. We also did lower the dependency to
texlive-base dropping -extras.
Yeah, I knew Texlive was added for that reason, but I was holding out for a smaller substitute. Preferably one already available on a vanilla installation of Debian or Ubuntu.
Be careful, texlive-latex-extra is still being installed, even if it is a recommend. It has the potential to pull in a bunch of packages as it's own dependencies which can greatly increase the size of the installation.
Korganizer isn't a dependency at all.
True, it's a 'Suggest'. It doesn't install automatically and isn't likely to be a direct problem.
However, KonsoleKalendar is a 'Recommend' and WILL be installed automatically, as well as much of KDE as dependencies. In this case it's not so much as HOW MUCH is being downloaded, but WHAT is being downloaded.
I had problems in the past trying to get KDE programs working under Gnome, so I often warn others to avoid listing desktop components as Depends/Recs/Sugs unless absolutely necessary. I usually suggest programs that aren't desktop components, like using Pidgin instead of Empathy or Kopete.
Is it possible to get the package to choose between korganizer and osmo depending on what desktop the user has? Osmo is GTK+ based and more suited for Gnome.
Were KonsoleKalendar and Korganizer aesthetic choices or do they have some legitimate integration with GNUmed?
Does apt select packages using the "either | or" argument based on the size of the potential download or does it go for the first package mentioned in the argument when both are absent?
Heck, osmo may even be a better solution than Korganizer in all desktops. Can someone install it under KDE to check?
Can you use conditional statements in deb packages so osmo will be installed if a core Gnome library is installed, and likewise with KonsoleKalendar and KDE core packages.
Konsolekalender is only recommended and not installed by default (at
least not in Debian).
> I believe I mentioned this before months
Not that I remember but I may have forgotten.
That's okay. Remember though, Recommends are installed by default and this one installs much of the base for KDE because it is a component for KDE.
> Texlive and the other packages are native to KDE but not Gnome
The knee-jerk reaction would be "this is utter bull" but in a
reasonable world I shall ask: "What makes you think that ?"
I've just looked at the file manifest of Kubuntu and you are right! Texlive isn't installed by default, or at least not currently. I must have got confused about that somehow. Maybe an older version of Kubuntu or it was installed as a depend when I installed another program and didn't notice.
Sorry about that. I'm still hopeful for a replacement but that seems less likely now.
> Your results may vary but you get the idea. The size of the required
> download is unbelievably large when you consider that the GNUmed,
> PostgreSQL
> and Python packages (the main GNUmed requirements) only amount to a
> 60-80MB
> download at the most. What's even sillier is that I couldn't get
> Korganizer
> or KonsoleKalendar to work once installed.
It is *silly* that *you* didn't get it to work ? What do
you expect anyone to interpret that statement like ?
Does Ubuntu not ship working versions of those applications ?
It was silly because it should have worked, but didn't. It may have been a bug that's now resolved and I'll try again someday, but right now I'm seeing how many packages I can remove from my Debian 'Squeeze' install and still maintain functionality. May try it on my Ubuntu 'Karmic' install but the version in the Ubuntu repos is closer to 0.4.0 rather than 0.6.0.
BTW, any idea when the PPA is going to sync up with 0.6.2? It says a newer version is available but Synaptic still shows 0.6.0.
The installation size of GNUmed + TeX is easily dwarfed by any
meaningful use of the GNUmed EMR - databases will run up to several
Gigabyte. The one I am taking care of currently is 7 Gig with no
shortage of disk space in sight on their 200 GB hard drive.
Database size doesn't enter into what I'm pointing out. Fill up that drive if need be.
What does the size of GNUmed have to do with the size of packages
it uses ? If we would re-implement in GNUmed the flexibility we
gain by using TeX GNUmed would become just as large. And it would
contain a lot more bugs that have been wiped out from TeX already.
Texlive adds the needed functionality: THAT IS FINE. All for it. I was hoping for a smaller, simpler solution but that seems to be out of our hands since neither of us know of a decent replacement. I was really hoping you remembered the other candidates for the role Texlive inevitably took so we could have discussed them.
There were a few technical things that bugged me about Texlive that had nothing to do with its functions:
1. I'm concerned about potential bugs that can be introduced simply due to the installation of so many packages.
2. Network congestion due to the increased chance of large updates should GNUmed be implemented on a large scale (or even a small scale in some cases). Places that really need FOSS solutions like GNUmed include poorer nations with inadequate internet infrastructure. In the creation of Linux For Clinics I'm also trying to take this at
heart and am working to see what packages I can remove to slim things
down some. Recommends are killing me.
3. Synaptic is mislabeling packages and being a dick.
Examples:
1. 'checksecurity' is currently listed as a 'Missing Recommend'. A look at it's 'Dependant Packages' points to 'cron', but 'cron' lists 'checksecurity' as a 'Suggest'
2. "Auto Removable" packages that should NOT be autoremoved
3. The list of "Manual" packages weren't manually installed. If you keep your Dependencies/Recommends/Suggests as streamlined as can be, leaving out packages that are not really needed (Yes, even the 'Suggests'), then you eliminate
a possible source of error.
(Seriously, Synaptic devs. Fix that shit.)
So it really is in GNUmed's interest to keep it simple when it can.
> Since Gnome is the default for both Ubuntu and Debian you know people will
> notice. Such a download is obviously prohibitive for using Gnumed
Not that I have noticed so far.
I noticed and I'm sure network admins would, too. Updating 100 computers with 100MB patches can really eat up bandwidth, bring the whole network down to a crawl and pretty much ensure no one gets any work done that day. Something that is a very serious concern considering how busy such a network normally is and how lives depend on that work.
> Can this be remedied?
What is your suggested course of action ?
Where can we download linux4clinics and observe the problem you are
having in real live ? At which URL to you want me to answer to
the complaints/worries of your users and explain to them what TeX is
being used for ? Maybe we can discuss with them what they feel would be
a better approach ?