Re: Kickstarter was not successful... but it did help things...

[Doc O'Leary]

In article <mailman.9907.1387636836.10748.discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>,
 Gregory Casamento <greg.casamento@gmail.com> wrote:

> Your understanding of how things work on an open source/free software
> project is fundamentally flawed.

No, my understanding of both what *happens* and what *works* are fine.  
That's my point.  Most open source efforts are content to be a big ol' 
circle jerk with a bunch of dork coders patting each other on the backs 
on how clever they are.  Meanwhile, Apple pushes the same technology 
with a different idea, and ends up not only helping people lead better 
lives, but making billions in the process.

> If you think this approach will work, you should try it.  From experience
> you wont have as much success as you think.

What is your measure of success?  Is the topical Kickstarter failure 
considered a measure of that success?  Is the continued irrelevance of 
GNUstep the measure?  If so then, no, I assure you that my methods are 
not geared for that type of success.  But if you ever want something 
else, something more reality-based, you'd do well to consider making 
some of the changes I've been suggesting.

> Here's an even more radical one.  We've already done much of this analysis.
>  Just because you weren't involved doesn't mean it didn't happen.

There is no evidence of that.  You don't point to the discussion.  You 
can't even point to the *results* of the discussion.  What you *have* 
done is dismissively "LOL" a poll regarding UIKit.  That is nothing 
radical.  That is not good leadership.

> The reason for Apple to implement UIKit is very simple. AppKit processes
> mouse and keyboard driven events.  With a mouse you're forced to move the
> pointer from one location to another.  On a phone or tablet you know
> precisely where the user is pointing via touch events.  Another
> consideration was the difference in form factor as well as the fact that
> the framework needed to be lightweight and that is something AppKit isn't.

Uh, it's an API!  I really don't get the inability of people to think 
beyond the implementation.  The question I'm asking is about the 
significant differences, if any, that require you to do more than change 
and NS- prefix to UI-.  I mean, my fundamental use of UIView isn't any 
different than what my use of NSView has been for decades.  That events 
might be touch-based is really of *very* little significance.

So, like I said, it may very well be that the smart position for GNUstep 
to take is to simply say, "Even though Apple provides separate APIs for 
Mac and iOS apps, GNUstep allows all apps to be written with just one 
API."  Advantage GNUstep!  Now, sure, you might want to put in some 
bridge code to make portability even easier, but that's not necessarily 
necessary.  Again, it all comes down to stating your position and 
properly supporting it.

> > Talk on a mailing list is cheap.
> >
> > And yet so much more valuable than aimless code.
> 
> You really think you're being productive.  I invite you to use the
> technical skills you touted earlier to contribute something.

Brownian Motion is not my thing.  Until you see value in these 
non-technical discussions, there is no point in contributing much else 
to GNUstep.

> Good grief...  open source projects are inherently self-serving.

Yes, but if they are *ultimately* self-serving, then there is no point 
in contributing to them.  I code so that other people don't have to.  So 
that they can stand on my shoulders and achieve greater things.  That's 
the kind of things I look to collaborate on, not just a bunch of coders 
stroking their own egos.

> I am a trained computer scientist.  I have a degree, with honors, from
> University of Maryland at College Park and I studied at Johns Hopkins
> University.  As is David who has a PhD from Swansea University.  Others in
> the group also hold degrees.

If you want to prove you have a science education, prove it by engaging 
in a scientific approach.  You remain dismissive of theoretical 
discussions, demanding only work towards your currently misguided 
efforts.  No, I will not help you build a perpetual motion machine.  
Change your thinking.

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