Re: Changes for emacs 28

[Ergus]

On Wed, Sep 09, 2020 at 12:05:54PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> Thanks, TEC, I found it quite useful.  Further comments and questions below.
>
> > * Org-mode, my ramp into Emacs pt.1 - vanilla
> > - I'd heard about Org-mode as a thing markdown + execution
> > - Maybe this could be better than Jupyter?
> > - However... I didn't like Spacemacs
> > - Removed Spacemacs
> > - Typed 'emacs' into a terminal
>
> So far so good.
>
> > - Oh, this looks old.
>
> Fair enough.  I don't think we (Emacs community) are in a position to
> make it look "modern" and sexy.  I know I'm not because my notion of
> "modern and sexy" is quite outmoded ;-)
>
> But "looks old" is usually not a deal breaker, just a negative
> first impression.
Actually spacemacs made it to look a bit more modern by just changing
some colors.

> > - Successfully opened a file
> >   + Where are the line numbers?
>
> Interesting.  It would never occur to me to expect line numbers in
> a text editor.  When and why did line numbers become fashionable?
> [ My guess is something like "ever since shortscreens became the only
>  option, creating a void in the horizontal space that needed
>  filling" ;-) ]
>
> I don't oppose enabling line numbers by default, but I do find line
> numbers to be an awful waste of valuable screen real estate.
I use line numbers, but instead of enabling them by default we could
make it very very accessible in the toolbar or initial config dialog.

> >   + Why aren't I given much information on the file
>
> Could you be more specific in terms of the particular information that
> you felt Emacs failed to give (and maybe how you expected it to be given)?
>
> >   + Where's the completion, the linting, etc.
>
> Do I understand you right that you expected company+eglot+flymake to be
> enabled (and configured) by default?
>
> I personally find this to be the most glaring concrete problem in
> Emacs nowadays.
Again we just don't need to enable them by default, but just make them
easier to config. I still find myself in the dichotomy between company
or auto-complete modes after 6 years in emacs.

flymake is good enough, but not very easy to find on the beginning, and
it still requires a lot of work. Also most of the documentation around
recommends using flycheck and actually for me it works much better in
most of the situations and languages I use.

> > - Tried to execute a command interactively (forget which command)
> >   + Typed M-x
> >   + Wait, this is just a text box
> >   + I don't know commands off by heart!
> >   + I want to be able to type key terms and see options!
>
> How much of this would be satisfied by icomplete-mode together with the
> `substring` completion-style (which would be a smaller change to
> the UI than something like helm-M-x or counsel-M-x).
Yes please.. If you think that icomplete/fido-mode can be improved
somehow, just make specific requests.

> > - Having an initialisation† file, well commented such that *without knowing
> >   anything about Emacs* I could have Emacs be set up such that I could
> >   actually try it with familiar tasks and not be underwhelmed, or have
> >   to deal with sudden troubleshooting
>
> Maybe we could have a "default init file" (consisting of nothing but
> commented out code snippets, accompanied by actual comments explaining
> them)?
This is why I have been asking for use-package integration. As a
starting point this is the easier we can provide to starters to
find/know about the different options and modes.

> >   †The important bit about this file is that it let me declare which
> >   bundles of functionality I want easily, and without having to parse
> >   much unfamiliar lisp (both Spacemacs and Vanilla fail in this regard,
> >   but in different ways).
>
> Hmm... a "default init file" would still use "unfamiliar Lisp", I'm afraid.
with use-packages the lisp knowledge needed to configure is
minimal. Just to understand (this detail)

> > - Having good 'discoverability enhancements' used by default
> >   - counsel for M-x
>
> IIUC this is similar to enabling icomplete-vertical and
> icomplete-show-matches-on-no-input, and maybe using a regexp
> completion style?
There is not icomplete-vertical yet ;).

Any way icomplete is too far to compete with counsel/ivy/swiper in
functionality and termination level.  (at the moment icomplete is Donald
Duck and counsel is James Bond).

I don't ask to add counsel to vanilla because it requires many external
optional dependencies that I would never like to see in vanilla and
retards the startup time.

> > - Used Discord for it's community, a recent chat-app which I recognised
> >   (I'm still warming up to mailing lists).
>
> Definitely a non-starter since it's proprietary.
> There are obviously acceptable alternatives.
>
> I think an important aspect is to find a communication medium that can
> be used from Emacs.  IRC and Email do satisfy this criteria.
> Whenever I have to write text outside Emacs I feel hampered.
Emacs has even a telegram client, jabber client, and IRC... so of course
any method we use to communicate must have an emacs client, a web or
desktop client and a mobile client.



>        Stefan