Re: Thoughts on forming a GNU Radio Amateur Radio monthly meeting group

[Markus Heller]

Dear list,

here in Germany we've been working on a standard class to teach SDR to
radio amateurs. We see that the learning path is quite steep for the
ordinary OM. 

In the academa you have several semesters time to learn everything you
need, including complex maths. But the ordinary OM has very little time
compared to a student, and moreover, we don't want to forget those who
do not have an academic background. And yes, theree are many who are
interested in SDR but are not proficient in English (same in Belgium,
I've been discussing this with Kristoff). Probably this also applies to
many other countries. So generally I'm glad we have a common language
here. 

There is not much that speaks against preparing a standard class in
other languages as well. Here is our structure:

1.) Digital Signal Processing (introduction)
2.) Maths, operations on complex numbers
3.) GNURadio introduction
4.) NumPy, SciPy, Matlab, Octave
5.) Digital Signal Processing (advanced topics)
6.) ADCs, DACs
7.) Filter design
8.) GNURadio (advanced 1)
9.) GNURadio (advanced 2)
10.) FPGA fundamentals
11.) Data transmissions
12.) Review of current hardware and their properties

We also see that there are very few people who can support such a
training plan as teachers. The question will be how to roll out such a
plan with an extremely limited number of helpers. We probably can run
such a class once or maybe twice, but I would like to spread such
knowledge much further in our national club DARC. 

Now I come to the problem you all have, around the world: At some point
in the future the HAM RADIO examination administrations will demand
some update in their exam questions, and there will be a point where
the officials will ask for SDR topics. 

One they ask for SDR topics, there will be the need to have skilled
teachers who can teach this kind of knowledge. And we have around 100
local clubs in Germany that train applicants for the exam, but very
very few of them can train people to answer SDR questions on a
reasonable level. Our trainers are brilliant experts for analog
electronics and legacy ham radio things, but very often they have not
received according higher education on complex maths and they are not
very deep into digital signal processing. We need to give them a chance
to learn these things to such a degree that they can teach. 

So I'd strongly advocate to turn GNURadio into a standard topic of
world wide amateur radio education and exams, because it is Open Source
and a wonderful platform to understand and learn how things work. 

Ideally we could define a level of knowledge we recommend for trainers
to reach and set a path to go there within a limited amount of time,
maybe with such a class structure as we have defined above. 

What do you think?

vy73
markus
dl8rds



Am Samstag, den 26.09.2020, 06:44 -0300 schrieb Edmar Candeia Gurjão:
> Hi  Kristoff,
> 
> I undestand your point, but it is function of the developer to turn
> as easy as possible the use of a technology. In this way, I like to
> contribute by giving high level short courses to amateur-radios. I
> think that depending on the interest of the audience, we can provide
> e view that the user can know what is the block and the parameters,
> like a Black box, 
> 
> Edmar
> PU7-ESE
> 
> 
> Em sex, 25 de set de 2020 20:03, Kristoff <kristoff@skypro.be>
> escreveu:
> > Hi Barry,
> > 
> > 
> > Concerning the discuss-gnuradio list, the thing is simply that I
> > try to 
> > stay as much on-topic as I can.
> > Otherwise, It's a bit like asking help on to write a novel in a 
> > mailing-list on LibreOffice-write. :-)
> > 
> > For me, a mailing-list and a chatroom are complimentary: one is
> > more 
> > real-time, the other gives more time to write out and explain
> > issues.
> > 
> > 
> > For GNU Radio and radio-amateurs, I think there are several
> > questions to 
> > ask:
> > 
> > - what is the audience? Only radio-amateurs, or everybody that is 
> > interested in signals?
> > (i.e. do you also want to use SDR as a tool to promote amateur-
> > radio?)
> > 
> > - Are you targetting people using SDR (i.e. setting up a SDR-based 
> > system for a particular application, e.g. a raspberry-pi + RTL-
> > dongle to 
> > receive weather satellites), or at you looking at people who want
> > to 
> > develop  SDR applications? (e.g. a GNU Radio flowgraph to
> > decode/encode 
> > a particular type of signal) ?
> > 
> > - Do the people understand that SDR is fundamentally SDR and 
> > signal-processing applied to radio-signals?
> > 
> > This means that, to understand SDR (which in GNU Radio translates
> > into 
> > "what blocks do I need to use for this function?' and "what values
> > do I 
> > need to fill in in that block?"), you do need to have basic 
> > understanding of SDR and signal-processing, which usually requires
> > some 
> > math.
> > 
> > - And, -as a consequence- what is the level of knowledge of the
> > people 
> > you are targetting?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I am trying to organise a small GNU Radio workshop for our SDR
> > group. (5 
> > sessions or so), and I am  struggling on how to do this.
> > 
> > 
> > The core issue is to make sure that people gave the correct
> > expectation 
> > about SDR development is and requires.
> > 
> > GNU Radio is a tool, and sometimes ...  a tool that is actually
> > too 
> > good. Somebody who sees GRC for the first time might think  .. "ah
> > .. 
> > that is easy. It is just putting blocks that represent parts of a 
> > receiver behind each other, and that is it. It just a question of 
> > learning what block does what".
> > That is not true. This may work for certain simple things (like a
> > FSK 
> > demodulator), but it quickly become much harder and requires a lot
> > more 
> > background knowledge then expected.
> > 
> > 
> > I usually compare it to the arduino environment.
> > The arduino is designed in an art university to let art students
> > create 
> > (e.g.) interactive art, without much knowledge of embedded
> > computing.
> > 
> > And, for the arduino, if it works, it works great! It's simple:
> > First project: add a sensor to an arduino, load a library, ... and
> > it works.
> > Second project: add a radio-module to an arduino .. load the
> > library .. 
> > and it works! Great!
> > 
> > 
> > But then,... they combine both the sensor and the radio-module in
> > one 
> > project,  and ... it does not work anymore.
> > Why? "No idea? Both libraries work .. so no idea what is the
> > problem!"
> > 
> > The problem might be (e.g.) that both the radio-module and the
> > sensor 
> > use the same hardware interrupt, or same SPI bus, ... or whatever.
> > But 
> > if the user does not know what a hardware-interrupt is (as all the 
> > complexity of the embedded device has been hidden in the library),
> > that 
> > he/she is stuck!
> > 
> > 
> > I have the impression the same applies to GNU Radio.
> > If it works, it works great.
> > But, if it does not (e.g. because some parameter of a block is not 
> > correct).. well, if you do not have the background knowledge of
> > what all 
> > these blocks do (e.g. you have some background on DSP, 
> > signal-processing, parameters of PLL loops, ....), then you are
> > stuck. 
> > (especially as some parameters of certain functions are not just 
> > numbers, but actually python functions by themself!)
> > 
> > This is something that I have noticed with quite a few hams: they 
> > replicate a flowgraph as found on the internet and that works
> > great. 
> > But  -unless it is a relative simple graph-, once they try building
> > a 
> > project by themself, they hit a brick wall pretty soon.
> > 
> > 
> > So, I am still puzzled how to organise this workshop.
> > In a uni, it is pretty simple: first they will your head with a lot
> > of 
> > theory (based on a lot of math), and then use tools like mathlab
> > and GR 
> > to apply that theory.
> > That is a model that is complete useless in the amateur-radio
> > community. :-)
> > 
> > So I am looking for an alternative. I think I might need something
> > like 
> > this:
> > 
> > - a series of (say) 5 or 6 workshops
> > 
> > - for every workshop:
> > -> first ask people to read some articles or watch some videos to
> > get 
> > some background knowledge (max 1 or 2 hours)
> > -> then do the workshop
> > -> let the workshop be a combination of practical skills and some
> > theory
> > 
> > - Afterwards, design a small CTF,  based on the things learned at
> > the 
> > workshop, to provide an extra incentive to who wants to learn more
> > - In addition, I also want to add a few 'hands-on' elements, .. as
> > hams 
> > do like to build things themselves! One possible project is a
> > simple SDR 
> > receiver with tayloe detector.
> > 
> > 
> > For the actual content of the workshops, I am still looking for
> > somebody 
> > who has good knowledge of SDR, DSP, GR .. and teaching (if
> > possible 
> > teaching to radio amateurs) to help me with that.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I really like GNU Radio and I think it by far the best tool to get 
> > people to learn about signals, .. but it is important that people
> > do it 
> > step by step and do not understand that they will be able to decode
> > some 
> > random PSK-signal  by just connecting some blocks together in GRC!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > If you plan to start the new mailing-list, please let me know as I
> > am 
> > really interested!
> > 
> > 
> > 73
> > kristoff - ON1ARF
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 24/09/2020 22:53, Barry Duggan wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi kristoff,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your thoughts. I am curious about your saying that
> > "I 
> > > have been hesitant to post here in the GR list as it's more
> > about 
> > > signal-process then about GNU Radio." Have you tried and not
> > gotten 
> > > good responses, or have you just assumed it was not the
> > appropriate 
> > > place? I hope we have not discouraged people from asking valid 
> > > questions here.
> > >
> > > As an alternate to creating another mailing list, we have a Ham
> > Radio 
> > > chat room which grew out of a GRCon20 Breakout session. It can
> > be 
> > > accessed by Matrix using the Element (previously Riot) desktop
> > or 
> > > phone app.
> > >
> > > server: gnuradio.matrix.ungleich.cloud
> > > room: #HamRadio:gnuradio.org
> > >
> > > you also can join the #gnuradio:gnuradio.org room for the more 
> > > specific GR questions.
> > >
> > > I will soon be posting a news item here and on the gnuradio.org
> > home 
> > > page about our first video meeting.
> > >
> > > 73,
> > > ---
> > > Barry Duggan KV4FV
> > > https://github.com/duggabe
> > >
> > > On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 22:24:49 +0200, kristoff wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Barry,
> > >
> > > Concerning the separate GR-ham mailing-list, I don't know if it
> > really 
> > > needs to be a "GR ham-radio" list,  but what I think would be
> > useful 
> > > is a separate mailing-list to discuss signal-processing (that
> > happen 
> > > to use GNU Radio), separate of the 'discuss-gnuradio' list that
> > is 
> > > more related to questions on GNU Radio itself.
> > >
> > > I am also still learning SDR, and I have a number of question on
> > how 
> > > to decode signals (e.g. "I want to decode RTTY with 1.5 stop-
> > bits, 
> > > what's the best way to handle that half a bit at the end without 
> > > impacting the clock-recovery block?") here I have been hesitant
> > to 
> > > post here in the GR list as it's more about signal-process then
> > about 
> > > GNU Radio. When talking to fellow hams who tried GNU Radio, a lot
> > of 
> > > them have the same problem: how to create a working flowgraph?
> > What 
> > > blocks to use? What do all the parameters of that block really do
> > and 
> > > what do I value should I put in there?
> > >
> > > So, yes, a separate list would be nice. .. but I don't know if a
> > "GR 
> > > Ham Radio"  is  the best combination.
> > >
> > > - Why only Ham radio?
> > >
> > > SDR and GNU Radio seams to me one of the best tools to promotion 
> > > amateur-radio, especially if you target people from the open-
> > source / 
> > > hackerspace / maker scene. Focussing to much on amateur-radio
> > will -I 
> > > think- might mean you lose this opportunity.
> > >
> > > - For the amateur-radio community, focussing to much on GNU
> > Radio 
> > > might not be ideal neither. For me, the main topic here is SDR, 
> > > signal-processing, DSP and data-communication, ... GNU Radio is
> > only 
> > > part (be it, a very big and important part) of that. Most hams
> > start 
> > > out with a simple RTL-SDR dongle and just *use* it for some
> > project: 
> > > APRS receiver, beacon receiver, to track HABs to listen to 
> > > weather-satellites, listen to QO100, ... It's usually only in a
> > later 
> > > stage that they move to GNU Radio, when they are comfortable
> > with 
> > > using SDR and are interesting going the next step: learn how SDR
> > works 
> > > internally and develop SDR applications themselves.
> > >
> > > 73
> > > kristoff - ON1ARF
> > >
> >