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| From: | U L |
| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on forming a GNU Radio Amateur Radio monthly meeting group |
| Date: | Mon, 28 Sep 2020 19:22:45 -0600 |
Hi Markus, Edmar, Barry, all,
Sorry for the late reply (you know .. weekend),
Yes, I think it will be interesting do have a small video-chat on this
subject.
I have the impression that everybody who is looking into getting more
radio-amateurs into SDR seams to have a similar issue.
At first, it looks to be "doable" if you orient the classes towards the
top 5 % hams that have a background that is compatible with looking at
electronics as signals and as mathematical formulas, but -indeed- it
becomes a lot more difficult to create a course for 'the average OM'
especially as amateur-radio has always been a lot more about
experimentation then 'detailed theory'.
Perhaps the most easy option is now to do something for the former
group and work from there on.
Concerning the difference between ham-radio courses and the academia. I
agree with your analysis but I think we do need to keep in mind that not
only the audience is very different, but also the goal. After all, our
goal is (I think) to get more hams to understand SDR. It is not to train
people to become telecom-engineers that are able to design 5G modems. :-)
Two more remarks:
- one think I do think that can help is a 'self-learning path' for
people who want to learn by themself.
There is a lot of information on the internet about signal-processing,
DSP and SDR (free and paying), and -based on the answers I got on the
questionnaire I did in the SDR Belgium list- people who do are
interested in these subjects do find them quite useful. So there might
be no need to 'reinvent the hot water' (as they say in Dutch)
That's also how I got started.
I wanted to understand the code of Jonathan G4KLX from his pcrepeater
project, so I needed a book on DSP to understand the code for the LPFs.
I started with the dspguide (http://dspguide.com) and then the RIchard
Lyons book. Next up where the 'SDR with the HackRF' videos by Michael
Ossman, and I now going through the 'wireless-pi' course by Qasim
Chadhari (when I have time for it).
I have a list of interesting resources (*), but I do think that a more
structured 'path' can be quite useful for people.
This applies for people starting out with SDR, or people who have done
your 'hamradio course' of SDR and want to really go further in this topic.
(*) https://github.com/on1arf/sdr/blob/master/links.md
- another element that can help is getting more people to use GNU Radio,
just as an educational tool.
I once used GNU Radio to demonstrate how you can 'filter a signal out of
noise' (like WSPR, FT8, ... do) by 'averaging out' the noise during out
weekly jitsi-session of our local radioclub.
There is a very good video of Tom Rondeau explaining convolution and
matched filters at TAPR 2012, using GNU Radio as a visual educational
tool (*)
It's not about the visual / educational element itself. It also makes
GNU Radio better known by both the students and the teachers (even
outside the context of SDR), and let them appreciate the tool.
So it might be just as important to teach the trainers of the
amateur-radio courses to use the tools out there that can really help
them to explain things to their students, including GNU Radio. (**)
(*) https://youtu.be/cg3TA3EDx78?t=119
(**) Note that this does only apply to GNU Radio, but also
antenna-simulation / visualisation tools, math tools like
octave/scilab/scipy/numpy, or the "falstad" online circuit analysis:
https://www.falstad.com/circuit/
Anycase,
I am very interested in the details your course on SDR and your plans on
how to do this practically.
Is this a pure 'class' course or a workshop? How many hours of study
would be needed for this?
So, if you would plan to do a video-conference on this topic, I think
there would be quite some interest by some people I know on this topic.
73
kristoff - ON1ARF
On 26/09/2020 12:17, Markus Heller wrote:
> Dear list,
>
> here in Germany we've been working on a standard class to teach SDR to
> radio amateurs. We see that the learning path is quite steep for the
> ordinary OM.
>
> In the academa you have several semesters time to learn everything you
> need, including complex maths. But the ordinary OM has very little time
> compared to a student, and moreover, we don't want to forget those who
> do not have an academic background. And yes, theree are many who are
> interested in SDR but are not proficient in English (same in Belgium,
> I've been discussing this with Kristoff). Probably this also applies to
> many other countries. So generally I'm glad we have a common language
> here.
>
> There is not much that speaks against preparing a standard class in
> other languages as well. Here is our structure:
>
> 1.) Digital Signal Processing (introduction)
> 2.) Maths, operations on complex numbers
> 3.) GNURadio introduction
> 4.) NumPy, SciPy, Matlab, Octave
> 5.) Digital Signal Processing (advanced topics)
> 6.) ADCs, DACs
> 7.) Filter design
> 8.) GNURadio (advanced 1)
> 9.) GNURadio (advanced 2)
> 10.) FPGA fundamentals
> 11.) Data transmissions
> 12.) Review of current hardware and their properties
>
> We also see that there are very few people who can support such a
> training plan as teachers. The question will be how to roll out such a
> plan with an extremely limited number of helpers. We probably can run
> such a class once or maybe twice, but I would like to spread such
> knowledge much further in our national club DARC.
>
> Now I come to the problem you all have, around the world: At some point
> in the future the HAM RADIO examination administrations will demand
> some update in their exam questions, and there will be a point where
> the officials will ask for SDR topics.
>
> One they ask for SDR topics, there will be the need to have skilled
> teachers who can teach this kind of knowledge. And we have around 100
> local clubs in Germany that train applicants for the exam, but very
> very few of them can train people to answer SDR questions on a
> reasonable level. Our trainers are brilliant experts for analog
> electronics and legacy ham radio things, but very often they have not
> received according higher education on complex maths and they are not
> very deep into digital signal processing. We need to give them a chance
> to learn these things to such a degree that they can teach.
>
> So I'd strongly advocate to turn GNURadio into a standard topic of
> world wide amateur radio education and exams, because it is Open Source
> and a wonderful platform to understand and learn how things work.
>
> Ideally we could define a level of knowledge we recommend for trainers
> to reach and set a path to go there within a limited amount of time,
> maybe with such a class structure as we have defined above.
>
> What do you think?
>
> vy73
> markus
> dl8rds
>
>
>
> Am Samstag, den 26.09.2020, 06:44 -0300 schrieb Edmar Candeia Gurjão:
>> Hi Kristoff,
>>
>> I undestand your point, but it is function of the developer to turn
>> as easy as possible the use of a technology. In this way, I like to
>> contribute by giving high level short courses to amateur-radios. I
>> think that depending on the interest of the audience, we can provide
>> e view that the user can know what is the block and the parameters,
>> like a Black box,
>>
>> Edmar
>> PU7-ESE
>>
>>
>> Em sex, 25 de set de 2020 20:03, Kristoff <kristoff@skypro.be>
>> escreveu:
>>> Hi Barry,
>>>
>>>
>>> Concerning the discuss-gnuradio list, the thing is simply that I
>>> try to
>>> stay as much on-topic as I can.
>>> Otherwise, It's a bit like asking help on to write a novel in a
>>> mailing-list on LibreOffice-write. :-)
>>>
>>> For me, a mailing-list and a chatroom are complimentary: one is
>>> more
>>> real-time, the other gives more time to write out and explain
>>> issues.
>>>
>>>
>>> For GNU Radio and radio-amateurs, I think there are several
>>> questions to
>>> ask:
>>>
>>> - what is the audience? Only radio-amateurs, or everybody that is
>>> interested in signals?
>>> (i.e. do you also want to use SDR as a tool to promote amateur-
>>> radio?)
>>>
>>> - Are you targetting people using SDR (i.e. setting up a SDR-based
>>> system for a particular application, e.g. a raspberry-pi + RTL-
>>> dongle to
>>> receive weather satellites), or at you looking at people who want
>>> to
>>> develop SDR applications? (e.g. a GNU Radio flowgraph to
>>> decode/encode
>>> a particular type of signal) ?
>>>
>>> - Do the people understand that SDR is fundamentally SDR and
>>> signal-processing applied to radio-signals?
>>>
>>> This means that, to understand SDR (which in GNU Radio translates
>>> into
>>> "what blocks do I need to use for this function?' and "what values
>>> do I
>>> need to fill in in that block?"), you do need to have basic
>>> understanding of SDR and signal-processing, which usually requires
>>> some
>>> math.
>>>
>>> - And, -as a consequence- what is the level of knowledge of the
>>> people
>>> you are targetting?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am trying to organise a small GNU Radio workshop for our SDR
>>> group. (5
>>> sessions or so), and I am struggling on how to do this.
>>>
>>>
>>> The core issue is to make sure that people gave the correct
>>> expectation
>>> about SDR development is and requires.
>>>
>>> GNU Radio is a tool, and sometimes ... a tool that is actually
>>> too
>>> good. Somebody who sees GRC for the first time might think .. "ah
>>> ..
>>> that is easy. It is just putting blocks that represent parts of a
>>> receiver behind each other, and that is it. It just a question of
>>> learning what block does what".
>>> That is not true. This may work for certain simple things (like a
>>> FSK
>>> demodulator), but it quickly become much harder and requires a lot
>>> more
>>> background knowledge then expected.
>>>
>>>
>>> I usually compare it to the arduino environment.
>>> The arduino is designed in an art university to let art students
>>> create
>>> (e.g.) interactive art, without much knowledge of embedded
>>> computing.
>>>
>>> And, for the arduino, if it works, it works great! It's simple:
>>> First project: add a sensor to an arduino, load a library, ... and
>>> it works.
>>> Second project: add a radio-module to an arduino .. load the
>>> library ..
>>> and it works! Great!
>>>
>>>
>>> But then,... they combine both the sensor and the radio-module in
>>> one
>>> project, and ... it does not work anymore.
>>> Why? "No idea? Both libraries work .. so no idea what is the
>>> problem!"
>>>
>>> The problem might be (e.g.) that both the radio-module and the
>>> sensor
>>> use the same hardware interrupt, or same SPI bus, ... or whatever.
>>> But
>>> if the user does not know what a hardware-interrupt is (as all the
>>> complexity of the embedded device has been hidden in the library),
>>> that
>>> he/she is stuck!
>>>
>>>
>>> I have the impression the same applies to GNU Radio.
>>> If it works, it works great.
>>> But, if it does not (e.g. because some parameter of a block is not
>>> correct).. well, if you do not have the background knowledge of
>>> what all
>>> these blocks do (e.g. you have some background on DSP,
>>> signal-processing, parameters of PLL loops, ....), then you are
>>> stuck.
>>> (especially as some parameters of certain functions are not just
>>> numbers, but actually python functions by themself!)
>>>
>>> This is something that I have noticed with quite a few hams: they
>>> replicate a flowgraph as found on the internet and that works
>>> great.
>>> But -unless it is a relative simple graph-, once they try building
>>> a
>>> project by themself, they hit a brick wall pretty soon.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, I am still puzzled how to organise this workshop.
>>> In a uni, it is pretty simple: first they will your head with a lot
>>> of
>>> theory (based on a lot of math), and then use tools like mathlab
>>> and GR
>>> to apply that theory.
>>> That is a model that is complete useless in the amateur-radio
>>> community. :-)
>>>
>>> So I am looking for an alternative. I think I might need something
>>> like
>>> this:
>>>
>>> - a series of (say) 5 or 6 workshops
>>>
>>> - for every workshop:
>>> -> first ask people to read some articles or watch some videos to
>>> get
>>> some background knowledge (max 1 or 2 hours)
>>> -> then do the workshop
>>> -> let the workshop be a combination of practical skills and some
>>> theory
>>>
>>> - Afterwards, design a small CTF, based on the things learned at
>>> the
>>> workshop, to provide an extra incentive to who wants to learn more
>>> - In addition, I also want to add a few 'hands-on' elements, .. as
>>> hams
>>> do like to build things themselves! One possible project is a
>>> simple SDR
>>> receiver with tayloe detector.
>>>
>>>
>>> For the actual content of the workshops, I am still looking for
>>> somebody
>>> who has good knowledge of SDR, DSP, GR .. and teaching (if
>>> possible
>>> teaching to radio amateurs) to help me with that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I really like GNU Radio and I think it by far the best tool to get
>>> people to learn about signals, .. but it is important that people
>>> do it
>>> step by step and do not understand that they will be able to decode
>>> some
>>> random PSK-signal by just connecting some blocks together in GRC!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you plan to start the new mailing-list, please let me know as I
>>> am
>>> really interested!
>>>
>>>
>>> 73
>>> kristoff - ON1ARF
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24/09/2020 22:53, Barry Duggan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi kristoff,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your thoughts. I am curious about your saying that
>>> "I
>>>> have been hesitant to post here in the GR list as it's more
>>> about
>>>> signal-process then about GNU Radio." Have you tried and not
>>> gotten
>>>> good responses, or have you just assumed it was not the
>>> appropriate
>>>> place? I hope we have not discouraged people from asking valid
>>>> questions here.
>>>>
>>>> As an alternate to creating another mailing list, we have a Ham
>>> Radio
>>>> chat room which grew out of a GRCon20 Breakout session. It can
>>> be
>>>> accessed by Matrix using the Element (previously Riot) desktop
>>> or
>>>> phone app.
>>>>
>>>> server: gnuradio.matrix.ungleich.cloud
>>>> room: #HamRadio:gnuradio.org
>>>>
>>>> you also can join the #gnuradio:gnuradio.org room for the more
>>>> specific GR questions.
>>>>
>>>> I will soon be posting a news item here and on the gnuradio.org
>>> home
>>>> page about our first video meeting.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> ---
>>>> Barry Duggan KV4FV
>>>> https://github.com/duggabe
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 22:24:49 +0200, kristoff wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Barry,
>>>>
>>>> Concerning the separate GR-ham mailing-list, I don't know if it
>>> really
>>>> needs to be a "GR ham-radio" list, but what I think would be
>>> useful
>>>> is a separate mailing-list to discuss signal-processing (that
>>> happen
>>>> to use GNU Radio), separate of the 'discuss-gnuradio' list that
>>> is
>>>> more related to questions on GNU Radio itself.
>>>>
>>>> I am also still learning SDR, and I have a number of question on
>>> how
>>>> to decode signals (e.g. "I want to decode RTTY with 1.5 stop-
>>> bits,
>>>> what's the best way to handle that half a bit at the end without
>>>> impacting the clock-recovery block?") here I have been hesitant
>>> to
>>>> post here in the GR list as it's more about signal-process then
>>> about
>>>> GNU Radio. When talking to fellow hams who tried GNU Radio, a lot
>>> of
>>>> them have the same problem: how to create a working flowgraph?
>>> What
>>>> blocks to use? What do all the parameters of that block really do
>>> and
>>>> what do I value should I put in there?
>>>>
>>>> So, yes, a separate list would be nice. .. but I don't know if a
>>> "GR
>>>> Ham Radio" is the best combination.
>>>>
>>>> - Why only Ham radio?
>>>>
>>>> SDR and GNU Radio seams to me one of the best tools to promotion
>>>> amateur-radio, especially if you target people from the open-
>>> source /
>>>> hackerspace / maker scene. Focussing to much on amateur-radio
>>> will -I
>>>> think- might mean you lose this opportunity.
>>>>
>>>> - For the amateur-radio community, focussing to much on GNU
>>> Radio
>>>> might not be ideal neither. For me, the main topic here is SDR,
>>>> signal-processing, DSP and data-communication, ... GNU Radio is
>>> only
>>>> part (be it, a very big and important part) of that. Most hams
>>> start
>>>> out with a simple RTL-SDR dongle and just *use* it for some
>>> project:
>>>> APRS receiver, beacon receiver, to track HABs to listen to
>>>> weather-satellites, listen to QO100, ... It's usually only in a
>>> later
>>>> stage that they move to GNU Radio, when they are comfortable
>>> with
>>>> using SDR and are interesting going the next step: learn how SDR
>>> works
>>>> internally and develop SDR applications themselves.
>>>>
>>>> 73
>>>> kristoff - ON1ARF
>>>>
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