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Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap


From: ken
Subject: Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 18:17:14 -0500
User-agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20101213)

On 12/27/2010 10:44 AM Richard Riley wrote:
> ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:
> 
>> On 12/27/2010 03:12 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>>> Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:
>>>
>>>> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>>>> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
>>>> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
>>>> gnus is installed.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Rudiger
>>>>
>>> Its a lot faster and you get nnir indexed searching as well as a
>>> local copy of all your mail and the overhead is very low.
>> For years I've been using IMAPS without a local server and the speed is
>> fine... anything "faster" than  my remote connection-- such as a local
>> server-- wouldn't be noticeable.  Moreover, using the remote server
>> (my
> 
> Possibly for you. Gnus IMAP performance was dismal until recently for
> many. (NoGnus is a LOT better).

Read again.  I wasn't comparing thunderbird to gnus.  To repeat what I
said in another way: Even if thunderbird was faster, I wouldn't really
notice the difference because it's virtually instantaneous now.  I click
on a message I want to read and it appears.  Same when I delete a
message... I hit the Delete key or click on Delete and the message is
gone-- immediately.  Efforts at increasing speed eventually yield
diminishing returns.

Can NoGnus multitask... perform more than one email client operation at
a time?  Back when I used it, gnus couldn't.  Really disappointing.


> 
>> ISP's) allows me to access my email from anywhere in the world where I
>> can get an internet connection.  Yes, I could do that with a local IMAPS
>> server... and of course secured and firewalled it... and put those
>> machines on a UPS and performed regular backups.  But why go through all
>> that when the ISP (or other organization) does it for free?
> 
> So you can access email offline too? have local indexing? As for all the
> firewalling etc, erm, are you not over complicating it a little. Simply
> dont provide any external login. Or do. For you.

I'm always connected, so for me there's no such thing as "offline" and
so no need to access email at a non-existent moment.  Yes, tbird has
13x3x2 indexing built in, selectable with a few mouse clicks (or key
chords, if that's preferred).  In addition, Thunderbird has lots of ways
to automatically filter, flag, and colorize mail, automatically mark or
colorize mail or move it from any place/folder/account to any other, all
easily configurable how the user wants.  All really sweet additions to
indexing.  And I don't need to have local copies of any mail to do
indexing or all these other functions (though they'd all work exactly
the same if I was using a local server).

I guess you could say it's a choice whether to have a firewall or not.
If you believe a password is sufficient security for your system(s),
good luck with that.  But you might want to have a look at the
latest/recent CERT announcement; there's a pretty wicked vulnerability
in SSL.  And it's probably not going to be the last one.  So, for me
anyway, hardening and firewalling systems perpetually connected to the
internet and taking other measures previously mentioned to maintain
functionality aren't "over complicating".  Indeed they're routine in the
enterprise and other places where security matters.


> 
>> The OP just wants to use emacs to get mail from a remote IMAP(S) server.
>>  Why turn it into a project?  It should take ten minutes, tops, to set
> 
> Should? This is Emacs and Gnus ..

Which is my point.


> 
>> that up... that's all it takes if you use thunderbird for your email
> 
> Thunderbird isn't Gnus.

True that.


> 
>> client.  Hopefully, setting up multiple IMAP(S) accounts in emacs will
> 
> Gnus is never a 10 minute tops. My suggestions were merely to inform :
> not to complicate. 

Well, good, that wasn't your intention.


> There is currently an initiative going on in no Gnus
> to provide simpler set up. Something with the power of Gnus will always
> be more complicated with such a simple entry level reader/client as
> Thunderbird.

Simple?  Entry level?  I've used at least a dozen different email
clients over the years (including gnus) and haven't found one better
than-- or even as good as-- thunderbird.  What specific features or
capabilities would you imagine should be added to thunderbird?


> 
>> be that good some day.  Apparently it isn't there yet.  I really wish it
>> was... believe me, I'd love to use emacs for my email.  Maybe in a few
>> years a really good, savvy, customer-oriented, and thorough emacs
>> developer or two will get involved and we'll finally get it.
>>
> 
> So let my get this straight? You dont even use Emacs for your email and
> you are commenting on performance? I'm a little confused as to why you
> think your experience using a different client has any relation to
> fetching IMAP with Gnus in Emacs. 

You don't have it "straight" at all.  I have in fact used gnus in the
past.  It was even my fav back when I had just one POP account.  Now I
have eight or ten email accounts from three different remote servers all
using IMAPS.  Gnus might/maybe/possibly be able to handle all that, but
I haven't been able to set that up (I once spent a week trying) and
nobody's been able to tell me how.  As I said in my previous post, I'd
love to be able to use emacs for email.  But the current state of the
technology simply isn't conducive to doing that.  I could drop my
current laptop in the middle of the ocean, buy a new one, do a full
linux install and configuration on it, thunderbird included, and be
reading all my email from all my accounts again just as before and with
no email lost-- all in less time than I spent trying unsuccessfully to
set up gnus.  How is this a tough decision?


> FWIW, I do agree with you that it
> could and should be easier to set up with such common servers as google
> provides.

Good!  This is what the discussion should be about.

Gnus/Emacs should be able to set up all my various accounts in something
like the emacs Customization menus... for a variable number of email
accounts on both local and remote servers.  When gnus or some other
emacs extension can do that and the other stuff thunderbird can do-- and
multitask all email client operations, then I'll switch.  Somebody let
me know when that happens.

Don't get me wrong.  Emacs as an editor is great-- the best available
for any price.  I started using it in 1986 and though vi is handy in
some circumstances, I only use something else when somebody pays me to.
 I once worked at a place where the boss told everybody to use vi and
nothing else.  Well, I gave a couple colleagues a run-through of emacs
for maybe a half hour, people who were longtime and unrepentant vi
fanatics.  I blew them away so thoroughly that word got back to the
boss-- a bulldog of a bastard-- and a couple days later he ordered
everybody in the whole department to learn emacs.  (Not everybody did,
but that's their misfortune.)  I've been advocating for emacs for a long
time to anyone with ears to hear.  Not so gnus though... for me to use
it is going to take a bit more work.





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