Re: not good proposal: "C-z <letter>" reserved for users

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 13.02.2021 10:17, Robert Thorpe wrote:
> Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:
>
> > On 12.02.2021 07:42, Robert Thorpe wrote:
> >
> > > I agree with Jean Louis on that too.  I think C-z C-z is not good
> > > enough.  Every other terminal application uses C-z by itself, it's a
> > > convention.  It's been that way for decades.  If you write a terminal
> > > application and do nothing special then C-z will suspend it.  That's
> > > because it sends SIGTSTP.
> >
> > Could we someday stop considering Emacs a "terminal application"? Yes,
> > it has a version that works in the terminal, but it's limited in
> > features compared to the graphical one.
>
> I only use graphical Emacs myself.  But I think that terminal Emacs is
> still important, as Jean Louis says.
>
> Lots of people who have started using Emacs recently came to from the
> terminal.  You can see that on Emacs Reddit.

Those are often former Vim developers, too. So it might not be due to 
the nature of their work, but largely due to their previous habits.

It's not a 100% conclusion of the survey we have referred to previously,
but its results state that ~30% of all users are in the terminal, ~30% 
of all users are using a Vim key bindings emulation, and ~30% of all 
users have been using Vim as their primary editor previously. They can't 
be all the same users, but it's an interesting coincidence.

> I'm not a web developer myself, but it seems to have happened like
> this....  Web people put their stuff on test servers to try it out.
> Sometimes they prepare it or compile it on their own PC then copy it to
> the test server.  To save time some people started developing on the
> test server using things like VNC or Microsoft Remote Desktop.  That
> removes the copying over step.  Other would do tweaks to the code on the
> server by direct editing on the server, but keep the main code on their
> own PC.

I'm a web developer by trade, so maybe I could clarify a few things.

First, we don't usually edit the code on the server unless it's 
something really urgent and critical (and even then, we try not to). We 
edit the code on the local machine, check it into version control, and 
then perform the deployment using something like Ansible. We do 
automated testing, and for manual testing we usually do automated 
deployments as well, only on different servers.

Editing code on the remote machine can happen, but it's usually 
something minor you don't need a full-featured editor for. And you don't 
have your personal Emacs config on that server anyway, so why even 
bother. Tramp is available as an alternative, too.

Second, I'm the only one who uses Emacs in our department. Vim, VS Code 
and IntelliJ are the popular options. And I can see the reasons. So if 
you see me clamoring for change here, that's why.

> All that worked until web services became popular.  Then the test server
> was no longer a nearby, dedicated server accessed by a fast network.  It
> was an instance on a virtualized machine far away.  That has made using
> graphical tools to access these test servers less practical.  So, some
> people have moved to terminal programs instead.  A terminal editor like
> Emacs is very useful for making quick changes on a remote virtual
> machine.  That seems to have brought Emacs to a new audience.

I do see people working in the terminal, but that's either someone using 
Vim (which has no popular graphical UI still), or running tests, or 
doing some exploration in a REPL. Some edit code inside Docker, though.

But I rarely ever see someone using the 'C-z' -> 'fg' pair, in fact, I 
struggle to remember anyone do that (except some of the sysadmins, I 
guess). I am aware of that capability myself, but never take advantage 
of it, opting instead for an additional split in the terminal emulator. 
Overall, it seems to be like it had been more important in the earlier 
age when operating systems had no real multitasking. Now we have 
terminal splits, and tmux, and so on.

If it actually matters to the decision makers, I could make a poll or 
two (maybe on Reddit, maybe on my workplace) about whether people know 
about this feature, and whether they use it regularly.

That's not to say I would vote for removing it in favor of just freeing 
a key binding. If we do it, it should be for something important, like 
making Emacs's key bindings more mainstream. Even if it's just C-z and C-Z.