Re: best Dam*ed development environment revisited (was Re: [DotGNU]Working Groups plan v2)

[Charles Shuller]

I completely agree, but I'm lost on a key issue.  Isn't the 
interoperability thing what Sun tried to do with Java, and what POSIX 
tried to do with C?  How do we ensure success where they failed?  I 
think it is completely possible, but I don't know how to go about it, 
and I haven't seen anything that addresses that particular issue yet.  I 
also don't think Java had anything particularly wrong with it 
technically, other than it was massivly slow.  To me it seems lack of 
industry/developer support, and they got most of Academia onboard. 
Which also seems to be a point (specifically that Java lacked a cool 
DevPlatform) of Fitzix, if I'm not mis-reading this quote.

I could easily be completely off here, but I LIKE using Emacs and Make 
:)  Most IDE's completely irritate me, do we have enough developers 
working with us, who like using IDE's, to design, develop, and test one? 
 Again, I agree with what Fitzix is saying, everyone I know who 
develops for Microsoft thinks that the IDE is massively cool, and 
haven't the faintest idea how to invoke a compiler from the command 
line, so if we want them to use our product, we have to implement a 
simmilar, preferably much better development platform, again a point 
Fitzix made.  But better from the MS-DevStudio user standpoint (as 
opposed to mine, which would almost certainly not sell ;).

One final point, and I'll shut up :)  I hear a lot of people saying 
"Don't just copy what they do, improve on it!"  I agree, but I think we 
need to take it a step further than that.  We need to be completely 
pro-active, creating an overall strategy, fitting with GNU Ideals of 
course, to ensure dotgnu superseeds .net in functionallity as well as 
popularity.  Do we have anyone making industry contacts?  Do we actively 
seek partners with persons who will be most interested in .net, and 
explain why our implementation will be better?  Or better yet, ask them 
how our implementation could be made better?  I know everyone has heard 
of .net, but almost no one knows about dotgnu, and I have to slap them 
when they scoff at the idea :)  We sure can't afford national TV ads, 
but what about the acedemia ploy?  Get every college, and University in 
the country authoring with our toolchain on linux boxes?  I know my 
proffessors used to state (been out of school a while though, so maby 
they say something diff now) "The industry is Dominated by Microsoft, so 
that is what we choose to teach,"  When they ment, "Microsoft gave us 
lots of free code if we agreed not to even mention the existance of 
other operating systems"  We need that Audiance.  Also, what about 
Wal-Mart.  I know they recently told MS to go be unplesent with 
themselves, could they be pursuaded to implement a dotGNU solution, 
using our extentions maby, and be public with it?  What about IBM, they 
seem to have an article on dotGNU, but they also haven't commited to 
promoting it, at least not on their webiste, though they sure promote linux.

Ok, I'm shutting up now and getting back to work :)



Stephen Compall wrote:
> There is another track to DotGNU that is very important to me, but also 
> IMHO important to popularity: the users will follow the developers. This 
> is the "best damned development environment ever" track, introduced by 
> fitzix in "this year in DotGNU":
>
> Barry Fitzgerald writes:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> DotGNU has the potential of solving a number of problems that
> currently keep developers in the habit of creating programs for
> That Other Platform.  We could create a unified, cross-system
> compatible and completely interoperable development environment
> for multiple language development.  This would be a boon for the
> entire development industry and would solve many potential
> program availability issues that currently keep GNU/Linux from
> becoming ubiquitous in the market.  This aspect provides a unique
> opportunity to place Free Software at the forefront of the
> industry if we take our steps wisely.  Interoperability truly is
> king, but we must do more than interoperate.  We must create the
> best Dam*ed development environment that ever existed.  In the
> long run, this is our mandate.  We must, along with the rest of
> the Free Software world, do what it takes to dethrone the
> proprietary forces of the world.
>
> <http://dotgnu.info/pipermail/developers/2002-January/001599.html>
>
> I know IDE fans are out there, but I believe it can be better replaced 
> with *interoperating* components. I have a start on that tool concept, 
> which I will share if there is serious interest in doing this right now. 
> (as many people are getting excited about Portable .NET and VRS 
> development right now)


--
Charles Shuller
Jabber ID: address@hidden