Re: GNUstep Base OpenStep Compliance

[Tim Harrison]

On Friday, Apr 4, 2003, at 15:55 Canada/Eastern, Richard 
Frith-Macdonald wrote:

> What I want to see is a system that behaves (look and feel of apps)
> like NeXTstep (that's the real goal!) but is compatible with MacOS-X
> (to attract developers).

This can be done, but I think the order you want it to happen in is 
detrimental to GNUstep's success.

> In that light, I thing the compatibility priorities above are in the 
> wrong
> order.

I think they're perfectly in order.

> I can't see why we'd want the OPENSTEP 4.2 implementation as a
> particular target.  In terms of look and feel of the gui and 
> applications
> IMO NeXTStep3.2 was better and we should be aiming for that,
> while in terms of implementing the OpenStep API OPENSTEP4.2 is
> little better than MacOS-X, so where undocumented implementation
> details are concerned we should take a live system in preference to
> a dead one as our primary standard.

I think you're TOTALLY missing the point.  We're not talking about 
wanting a dead system.  We're talking about wanting support for an API 
that is UNCHANGING, as opposed to the CHANGING API of Cocoa, something 
we may not have the resources to track, and something that might 
implement changes that break previous OpenStep/OPENSTEP behaviour, 
causing GNUstep to be less than consistent.

It's like building a house (if you'll pardon the simile).  You can 
create the most incredibly beautiful house, with lovely gardens, and 
stunningly expensive stained glass windows, an exceedingly expensive 
art collection in the den, and a kitchen the size of Kitchen Stadium...

... but if there's no solid foundation, the whole bloody thing is going 
to crash down, and your neighbours are going to call you a prat, and 
wander off, chuckling to themselves.

People keep saying "OpenStep (or OPENSTEP, or whatever bloody 
combination of case you wish) is dead".  And then, in the next breath, 
argue that Cocoa is just an updated OpenStep.  Which is it?  Is it 
dead?  Is it Cocoa now?  Is it alive and well and living in 
Freedom/France?  Is it my cat?  I think OpenStep is alive and well, and 
Apple is learning how to build a proprietary system out of something 
that used to be a whole lot more "open".  So, maybe OPENSTEP 4.2 hasn't 
been a "current" system for a while, but the core technologies beneath 
it (OpenStep and the additions for OPENSTEP) are VERY much alive.

> At least I can go out and buy a reference copy of MacOS-X to test
> against ... even if I can find someone to sell me a second-hand copy
> of OPENSTEP-4.2 the chances are it won't run on my computer
> because it won't have drivers for the modern hardware.

You'd be surprised at what it runs on.  I believe it also runs in 
VMware, which would solve your hardware problem.  As for second hand 
copies of OPENSTEP, they are out there.

(NOTE:  I know VMware is a naughty word around here -- a situation that 
I think was silly beyond words (it's okay to use a copy of Windows or 
Mac OS X to develop GNUstep, but a generous grant of licences of VMware 
turns into a fiasco), but it *is* a potential solution)

> I'm very happy to have backward compatibility options for OPENSTEP
> users built into the code ... as long as those users help maintain 
> them,
> but I don't want to spend my time borrowing time on someones old
> OPENSTEP system to test each change I make so that the code
> conforms to the OPENSTEP4.2 implementation.

But, the point is, having "forward compatibility" with Cocoa would be a 
much wiser design choice.  Chasing an actively developed, and changing 
API, and expecting to base a stable system on it is, in my opinion, 
folly.  Starting with a solid, stable, unchanging base, and then adding 
on extensions to that, carefully selected from Cocoa, makes infinitely 
more logical sense.

I've kept my personal reasoning out of this, thus far.  But, I'm 
absolutely infuriated by the current state of GNUstep.  I've been 
trying to build an operating environment that is significantly based on 
GNUstep, but I have trouble going forward with it, because I don't want 
a user to have to reinstall the ENTIRE system every time someone makes 
a change to the releases, and suddenly everything from the user's mail 
client to the desktop/workspace to the init system no longer functions. 
 And, to a small degree, this happens to most of us, from release to 
release.  Even from CVS checkout to CVS checkout.  And I can't tell you 
how many times I've ranted, or watched others rant, about how 
ridiculously unstable GNUstep is, and how pissed off people are that 
the API/implementation/documentation (just kidding) keeps changing 
under the apps, making them fail miserably.

If you really think you can maintain a stable development environment 
while tracking Cocoa as a primary goal, then I salute you.  But, 
historically, and certainly up to this exact point in time, GNUstep is 
NOT stable, does NOT seem to have a solid goal (whether it be 
Cocoa-clone, OpenStep implementation, or anti-GNOME, whatever), and, in 
my opinion, has trouble getting developers and users because of these 
issues, not because NSDrawer isn't implemented.

I love the concept of GNUstep.  I love what it could/can be.  I can't 
tell you how many people say, "I read about GNUstep several years ago, 
and hoped it would be ready by now".  I started getting involved with 
this community two years ago now, and honestly believed that this 
environment would be ready for the kind of system I wanted to build.  
And, for some silly reason, I still stay, and still try to do my part 
for making things better.  I can't code to save my idiot life, but I 
submitted proposals for cleaning up filesystem organisation.  I want to 
see GNUstep rise above.  But, in the current state, I fear that it will 
forever remain an unstable, niche gadget, and act as an example of what 
might have been.

Does that make it clearer as to why we'd want to focus on 
OpenStep/OPENSTEP as a basis for development?  I can't think of any way 
to make it more plain.


Tim Harrison
address@hidden
http://www.linuxstep.org/