Re: Software/HD ecology

[Henrik Enberg]

Ajanta <ajanta@no.spam> writes:
 
> Makefiles routinely come with targets like "clean" which presumably
> deletes files like .log/.o and of course "install".  If they could
> have a few extra targets, like "superclean" or "EnglishOnly", that's a
> few extra lines. 

There are dependencies in the source code and the manuals.  Simply
removing the files is not a very pretty thing to do.

> Why is that comparable with the clutter of tens of MB and 100's of
> files scattered around? If you can have "make install", why not "make
> uninstall" which would merely remove all the installed files and
> links?

The Emacs Makefiles are created by a configure script.  If any part of
the config changes, It isn't the same Makefile.  You might remove the
wrong files then, unless you keep the unpacked and compiled tarball
around.
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Jens.Schmidt27@epost.de (Jens Schmidt) writes:

> I want to switch off auto-filling in a "Local Variables" section.  I want to
> avoid any questions on evaluation of risky variables, so running
> `auto-fill-mode' or setting `auto-fill-function' is not an option here.

Hm.  Maybe you can activate a minor mode that turns auto-fill off.
How does one activate minor modes in a local variables section?  Hm.

-- 
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Bjoern <p1@blinker.net> writes:

> Jim Crossley wrote:
>> Bjoern <p1@blinker.net> writes:
>> 
>>>I can't figure out how to make psgml indent my xml-files. It just
>>>doesn't do anything when I press 'tab' or do 'indent-region'.
>> M-x customize-variable RET sgml-indent-data
>
> Hm, my emacs doesn't seem to know that variable :-(

What does C-h v say about it?  Maybe it's a variable but not a Custom
option.

> The problem is that there isn't really a DTD for ant build.xml
> files. ALthough I think there now is a target to create one from a
> build file, but I am not sure if it's practical if it's constantly
> changing.

I know next to nothing about build files, but I always thought the
DTD was rather fixed.  You might wish to try the Ant command on two
different build files to see if the DTD is different.  (ant -projecthelp?)

-- 
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Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology (was Re:...Bug in Emacs 21.3.50)
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> "EnglishOnly"

And "FrenchOnly" and "GermanOnly" and "EnglishAndFrenchOnly" and
"ChineseAndEnglishOnly" and ... ?
Or are you going to claim that we should not care about non-English users ?

> Why is that comparable with the clutter of tens of MB and 100's of files
> scattered around?

Could you expand on your "scattered around" ?
As maintainers, it's in our own interest to keep things uncluttered,
so we strive to find some logic to things such that we can organize our
files and keep files in their logical place.  So please explain which files
or functions you think are "scattered around" and where they should
be instead ?
I don't claim that the current arrangement is perfect, but it takes time
and energy to think about how to make it better and to fix the various
places where things aren't consistent and logical, so help is most welcome.


        Stefan
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Ajanta <ajanta@no.spam> writes:

> Actually I don't understand this equivalence. Makefiles routinely come
> with targets like "clean" which presumably deletes files like .log/.o
> and of course "install".  If they could have a few extra targets, like
> "superclean" or "EnglishOnly", that's a few extra lines. Why is that
> comparable with the clutter of tens of MB and 100's of files scattered
> around?

Writing these few extra lines is a LOT of work.

Most important of all, it's not clear what to delete.  There would be
*endless* arguments about which files to remove and which files to
keep.  Emacs consists of 2297 files (on my system), it's very
difficult to untangle dependencies on them.

Let me give a simple example: some Linux distributions normally
install the *.elc files only and put the *.el files into an extra
package (*.rpm in the case of SuSE and Redhat), because the *.el files
are not needed for running Emacs.  (*.el files contain the source
code, and *.elc files are something like `object code' that's created
by `compiling' the *.el files.)

Then the ask how to send mail, and I tell them to type M-x
finder-commentary RET smtpmail RET.  This command prints some
documentation which is extracted from the beginning of the file
smtpmail.el.

But they don't have that file installed!

So, even the simple idea of `people don't want to look at the source
code, people just want to run the resulting binary' has failed!

(In an ideal world, there would be additional documentation for
smtpmail, outside the .el file.  But the world is not perfect, and
the documentation you get with M-x finder-commentary RET smtpmail RET
is quite adequate for setting it up, so nobody has ever bothered to
do anything about it.)

That said, XEmacs has the so-called package system which is a very
nifty thing indeed.  You install a base package of XEmacs which can
do almost nothing at all, and then you start installing XEmacs
packages which contain the Lisp code for various things.  It's very
easy this way to upgrade the packages that you have installed.

But then, a lot of XEmacs users install the Sumo tarball I think
which just contains all available packages :-)  (Caveat: I'm not an
XEmacs user, so what do I know what `a lot of XEmacs users' do!)
-- 
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Ajanta <ajanta@no.spam> writes:

> Actually I don't understand this equivalence. Makefiles routinely come
> with targets like "clean" which presumably deletes files like .log/.o
> and of course "install".  If they could have a few extra targets, like
> "superclean" or "EnglishOnly", that's a few extra lines. Why is that
> comparable with the clutter of tens of MB and 100's of files scattered
> around? If you can have "make install", why not "make uninstall" which
> would merely remove all the installed files and links?
> 
Most software I compile nowadays has a "make uninstall".
Also usually there is a distclean option that cleans very well.
As for the others most options belong in the configure step
like --without-this --with-that.

Bijan
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On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Kai Großjohann wrote:

> Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:
> 
>> Does anyone happen to know if there is anything out there like
>> hideshow.el but that works properly with java when one uses an aligned
>> parenthesis coding style?
>> 
>> e.g. a style like
>> 
>> for (whatever)
>> {
>>   some code;
>>   more code;
>> } 
>> 
>> (Actually, I seem to recall older versions of hideshow working, so
>> perhaps I'll try to get one of these working if I can't find anything
>> else).
> 
> What happens if you do M-x hs-hide-block RET or whatever it is that
> you need to do?

Hiding blocks works fine.  I think showing blocks generally works fine as
well.  The main problem is with toggling blocks; if I try to toggle a
hidden block, it ends up hiding the entire class (even though I've set it
up so that a "hide all" only hides the methods in the class).

Hmmm... maybe if I got used to hiding and showing with the keyboard only it
wouldn't be such a problem.  I'll have to find something nicer to bind the
hide/show functions to though; C-c @ C-h is pretty unwieldy.

-- 
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
 over, pinning you underneath.  At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
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Hi everybody,

I find myself quite often copying and then pasting something over an
existing string. Because I want to keep my hands on the keyboard, I
don't want to mark the string to be replaced with the mouse and the
paste the correct string. I just do a C-Backspace and then paste. But,
as you would guess, the C-Backspace gets rid of the data that I copied
and if I paste, the string that I want to replace is pasted back!

C-Backspace invokes backward-kill-word. I guess the problem is the
"kill", which saves the data in the kill ring. I probably need a
"backward-delete-word". Does this thing exist or does it have to be
written?

Emacs v21.2 on W2000.

--
Timur
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Wed Dec 11 17:50:13 2002
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From: Timur Aydin <timuraydin@superonline.com>
Date: 12 Dec 2002 00:47:02 +0200
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Hi,

I'm having trouble getting "find-dired" to behave correctly.

Here is what I do:

1) I open a directory using dired
2) I do M-x find-dired, accept the directory offered and specify
   Makefile as the file to find.

Here is what emacs comes back with:

  d:/BCMDEV/:
  find . \( Makefile \) -exec ls -ld {} \;
  find: paths must precede expression
  Usage: find [path...] [expression]
  
  find exited abnormally with code 1 at Thu Dec 12 00:39:28

I tried using find-name-dired and find-grep-dired. All of them give
errors:

find-name-dired, directory is d:/BCMDEV, pattern is Mak*

  d:/BCMDEV/:
  find . \( -name 'Mak*' \) -exec ls -ld {} \;
  find: missing argument to `-exec'
  
  find exited abnormally with code 1 at Thu Dec 12 00:45:04

find-grep-dired, directory is d:/BCMDEV, pattern is ALIGN

  d:/BCMDEV/:
  find . \( -type f -exec grep -q ALIGN {} \;  \) -exec ls -ld {} \;
  find: missing argument to `-exec'
  
  find exited abnormally with code 1 at Thu Dec 12 00:46:35

What am I doing wrong?

I am using emacs 21.2 on W2000 and Cygwin is installed on this
system. Cygwin is located in c:\cygwin and:

HOMEDRIVE=C:
HOMEPATH=\cygwin\home\tayd.

--
Timur.
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Wed Dec 11 17:50:14 2002
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Timur Aydin <timuraydin@superonline.com> writes:

> I find myself quite often copying and then pasting something over an
> existing string. Because I want to keep my hands on the keyboard, I
> don't want to mark the string to be replaced with the mouse and the
> paste the correct string. I just do a C-Backspace and then paste. But,
> as you would guess, the C-Backspace gets rid of the data that I copied
> 

No it doesn't.  It just gets pushed one level deeper on the kill ring.

> and if I paste, the string that I want to replace is pasted back!

Well, then use M-y after your paste and it will try the next recent
kill for pasting.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Wed Dec 11 18:00:11 2002
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On 12 Dec 2002, Timur Aydin wrote:

> Hi everybody,
> 
> I find myself quite often copying and then pasting something over an
> existing string. Because I want to keep my hands on the keyboard, I
> don't want to mark the string to be replaced with the mouse and the
> paste the correct string. I just do a C-Backspace and then paste. But,
> as you would guess, the C-Backspace gets rid of the data that I copied
> and if I paste, the string that I want to replace is pasted back!
> 
> C-Backspace invokes backward-kill-word. I guess the problem is the
> "kill", which saves the data in the kill ring. I probably need a
> "backward-delete-word". Does this thing exist or does it have to be
> written?

This may not be the ideal solution for you, but note that C-Backspace does
not "get rid of" the data that you copied, it merely pushes something on
top of it in the kill ring.  When you do a yank (C-y), the word you deleted
will indeed be inserted, but if you then do a yank-pop (M-y), it will be
replaced by the text you want.

-- 
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
 over, pinning you underneath.  At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Wed Dec 11 18:20:19 2002
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In article <un0nckwrq.fsf@superonline.com>,
Timur Aydin  <timuraydin@superonline.com> wrote:
>Hi everybody,
>
>I find myself quite often copying and then pasting something over an
>existing string. Because I want to keep my hands on the keyboard, I
>don't want to mark the string to be replaced with the mouse and the
>paste the correct string. I just do a C-Backspace and then paste. But,
>as you would guess, the C-Backspace gets rid of the data that I copied
>and if I paste, the string that I want to replace is pasted back!

Now type M-y and the string you just pasted is replaced by the previous
item on the kill ring, which is the one you really wanted.

>C-Backspace invokes backward-kill-word. I guess the problem is the
>"kill", which saves the data in the kill ring. I probably need a
>"backward-delete-word". Does this thing exist or does it have to be
>written?

What I usually do is paste first, and then delete.  I position the cursor
at the beginning of the word and type C-y M-d.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@genuity.net
Genuity, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
>From Jay.Bingham@hp.com Wed Dec 11 18:22:00 2002
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Timur,

Have you tried this:
C-Backspace C-y M-y

The yank-pop command (M-y) does this:
Replace just-yanked stretch of killed text with a different stretch.
This command is allowed only immediately after a `yank' or a `yank-pop'.
At such a time, the region contains a stretch of reinserted
previously-killed text.  `yank-pop' deletes that text and inserts in its
place a different stretch of killed text.

That description may be a little confusing because it doesent tell you
what different stretch of text is inserted.  Basically each time that
you hit M-y you get the previous entry in the kill ring.

-_
J_)
C_)ingham
.    HP - NonStop Austin Software & Services - Software Quality
Assurance
.    Austin, TX
. "Language is the apparel in which your thoughts parade in public.
.  Never clothe them in vulgar and shoddy attire."     -Dr. George W.
Crane-


-----Original Message-----
From: Timur Aydin [mailto:timuraydin@superonline.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 4:37 PM
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: backward-delete-word?

Hi everybody,

I find myself quite often copying and then pasting something over an
existing string. Because I want to keep my hands on the keyboard, I
don't want to mark the string to be replaced with the mouse and the
paste the correct string. I just do a C-Backspace and then paste. But,
as you would guess, the C-Backspace gets rid of the data that I copied
and if I paste, the string that I want to replace is pasted back!

C-Backspace invokes backward-kill-word. I guess the problem is the
"kill", which saves the data in the kill ring. I probably need a
"backward-delete-word". Does this thing exist or does it have to be
written?

Emacs v21.2 on W2000.

--
Timur
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