Re: Support RMS

[Paul Sutton]

On 27/03/2021 12:06, Robbt wrote:
> I am definitely trying to stake a middle ground here and that seems like a 
> losing position. I read the GitHub statement that many have signed on to and I 
> did feel like it overly harsh in it's treatment of RMS. For instance suggesting 
> he has a dangerous idealogy is not true based upon what I've seen and read.
I am trying to do the same, hence I tried to suggest ideas on moving 
forward, code of conduct, and creating a working environment that makes 
everyone feel safe, robust reporting, taking reports seriously and 
resolving issues, which can be from a simple mis-understanding right up 
to blatent discrimination or physical assault, Investigate fully, 
forensically and resolve.  Regardless of the people involved and their 
position.


> While I do agree that he has engaged in problematic behavior. He does have some 
> beliefs about sexuality that people find offensive but he doesn't make it a 
> point to promote these as an ideology as far as I know. He also doesn't appear 
> to misgender transpeople aside from rudely rejecting they as a pronoun so 
> calling him transphobic isn't right. His problematic behaviors are not ideology 
> as far as I can tell, unless one sees his ardent unflinching support of free 
> software and a refusal to compromise in the use of proprietary software as 
> dangerous because that is the ideology I see him actively espousing.
RMS strongly believes the 4 freedoms are fundamental,  he set that up to 
waiver from that, isn't leadership people follow his lead in the 
adoption of those 4 freedoms.

It may not be possible for the rest of us, to 100 percent follow that, I 
need closed firmware for my netbook wifi, but we can do our best, we 
should not be criticized for doing our best, you need to take in to 
account personal circumstances may not make it easy to buy new hardware.

> On the other hand it is also very possible that he has internalized sexism that 
> is likely common to one degree or another due to our upbringing in a 
> patriarchal society and one that has historically treated women poorly and 
> excluded them from leadership roles especially in technical fields. It takes 
> work to overcome this and I suspect that a lot of the unconscious biases people 
> hold are generally just hidden through polite mannerisms that RMS seems to lack.

Indeed, RMS was at college / university at a time when the world was a 
vastly different place to what is is now, attitudes have changed 
socially but people can take longer to change and adapt to that.

> The whole GitHub post paints him as an absolute monster and I can't get behind 
> that when there are so many people in leadership positions in this world that 
> have engaged in worse and probably hold much more repugnant ideas but they 
> don't share them out loud.
>
> I feel on the other hand that he has definitely creeped out a lot of women and 
> many people have problems with his behavior and I'd be wrong to pretend that 
> there isn't something there.

Part of the issue seems that these incidents were reported and were not 
taken seriously, so these have to be taken seriously as I would not be 
disclosing something unless I felt strongly I needed to,  so listen, 
take not, and help resolve the issue.

Having worked in schools in the UK we as staff HAVE to deal with any 
disclosure / report sensitively, confidentially and seriously and 
reassure a child they are doing the right thing coming forward, and that 
they can be helped, but clearly as front line staff we can't do 
everything, so also say in order to help you, (the child) then we have 
to take it to some who can help, so can't keep what they tell us secret.

> I also feel like the hero worship RMS can do no wrong and anyone who is 
> criticizing him is a liar isn't helpful in terms of healing or addressing the 
> real problems his behavior and tolerance of it has caused in terms of 
> alienating people.
>
> On the other hand do those who signed really think everyone on the board of the 
> FSF should resign immediately ?

Having a whole board resign, and replaced may not achieve anything 
unless there is a short, medium and long term strategy for change, 
otherwise you replace a board, who come in and follow the existing culture.

> Or is that just one of these impossible demands intended to show how outraged 
> the signers are and to stoke the fire of division. I don't know. I think Molly 
> DeBlanc was the original writer and she used to work at the FSF and so perhaps 
> there is a lot of personal history there that I'm not aware of.

I think the fsf need to reach out to people, find out what happened and 
also what happened when they made complaints, from how seriously it was 
taken to eventual resolution (if any),  Perhaps reach out and get people 
on board to help and advise on any changes.

I did say that any policies need to be evidence based,  which is 
important for credibility and not being seen as just 'dealing' with 
something, but be robust enough.

Surely the safe space policy isn't simple for events,  people should be 
able to go to work without fear of harassment, comments, bullying, 
intimidation etc, a safe space is just that.

> That suggestion if actually done I imagine would be catastrophic for the 
> organization and have bad impact on free software as a whole due to the impact 
> of the GPL. So I don't see why so many people are signing off on it. Even if 
> RMS were to step down again this wouldn't heal the rift this whole scenario has 
> caused.

For me the FSF is not simply one of many organisations in free software 
it IS at the top,  leadership comes from the top,  the FSF and GNU 
define the very license and principles that the other projects below it 
follow, therefore the FSF have to set a gold standard for others to follow.

> I am hopeful that the board meetings and addition of staff and a creation of a 
> transparent process regarding the selection of officers will improve the 
> governance of the FSF.

Me too, the FSF need to be seen to be taking action, even if part of a 5 
year plan for change,  those who critique that need to understand change 
does not come over night.  Lets all put our thinking caps on and come up 
with ideas.
> I think the way that RMS announced his return was completely inappropriate 
> because of the lack of planning for the uproar it was going to cause.

It certainly took people by surprise? The ramifications of which are 
going to be felt for a while longer.
> I am sad that RMS felt the need to return to the board and did so in this 
> impromptu fashion. I think the mission of the FSF is important and I think it 
> is good to have an organization that is unflinching in it's support of software 
> and hardware freedom even if it exposes the shortcomings and compromises myself 
> and others make in our everyday lives.
>
> I wish that it could pursue this mission without RMS needing to be on the board 
> and in a position of leadership and authority.

Strange as it may sound, people don't live forever,  if RMS carries on 
where he is and dies in 5 years time,  what happens?,  do the FSF carry 
on without their leader and adapt, or do they descend in to chaos as 
there is no leader.

> I can only hope that those who are now in positions of power can figure out a 
> way to navigate through this storm and keep the organization intact without 
> dismissing the valid concerns of many people and without sacrificing RMS and 
> what insight he can provide. I don't have much inner knowledge of the 
> organization and very little history so maybe this isn't a likely outcome.
yes, however conduct applies to anyone, it does not matter if your new 
19 year old intern or the head of the organisation  says something or 
does something inappropriate,  a robust procedure needs to be in place.

Start as a new employee and expectations should be laid down from day 
one, like I am sure a lot of employers do.

> I hoped that the FSF would grow beyond a dependence on RMS as the sole leader 
> but evidently that didn't happen and so I guess we will see what happens as 
> this process evolves.

Like I said people don't live forever.
> I just hope that everyone can try to have some empathy for each other and 
> remember that those of us here are on the same side in our desire for 
> increasing software freedom and empowering people to have control over the 
> technology in their lives.

Yes, the FSF can lead in that regard, it HAS to,  otherwise those who 
seek to take those freedoms away will gain more of a grip, as we are 
distracted.
> Thanks for reading my thoughts on the matter, I'm not sure if they are helpful 
> or just the muddled result of me spending too much time trying to process these 
> events without much direct first-hand knowledge or involvement. I do think that 
> words and what happens next with the FSF matter a lot though in terms of the 
> impact it will have on our society and planet as a whole so we should all try 
> to be mindful of that even if we can't predict the ultimate outcome. Our 
> movement needs to be bigger than any of our egos and we need to learn how to 
> treat each other better even as we fight for the freedom to share.
Your welcome,  and I agree with the last paragraph here.

Lets rebuild, stronger, safer, inclusive so our message is taken seriously.

> In solidarity,
>
> Robbt
>
>
> Mar 26, 2021 7:04:30 PM Deb Nicholson <deb@eximiousproductions.com>:
>
> > Well, it's disappointing but not surprising that a call for improving the
> > way people are treated within the free software movement is being seen by
> > some on this list as "hateful" or somehow in "opposition to free software."
> > I honestly don't see how creating a haven for sexist behavior and
> > disrespect can lead to the movement's growth, but maybe I'm mistaken in
> > thinking that we all want that growth.
> >
> > I am grateful to those who are interested in working towards an inclusive
> > and non-toxic future for the free software movement. Maybe I'll get to work
> > with you all someday on one of the projects that is interested in growing
> > the free software movement.
> >
> > Best,
> > Deb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 5:03 PM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> >
> > > * Deb Nicholson <deb@eximiousproductions.com> [2021-03-26 16:52]:
> > > >     An interesting thing about men who harass women is that they usually
> > > >     don't do it to men. Men who let the community know that they "don't
> > > >     believe in harassment" are the last people to find out it's happening,
> > > >     because no one feels safe telling them.
> > >
> > > Generalization without end.
> > >
> > > Why are you sending accusations to this mailing list? How is this
> > > mailing list to defend your rights? Or is your only purpose to divide
> > > and bring more hate here?
> >     Well, it's disappointing but not surprising that a call for improving
> >     the way people are treated within the free software movement is being
> >     seen by some on this list as "hateful" or somehow in "opposition to
> >     free software." I honestly don't see how creating a haven for sexist
> >     behavior and disrespect can lead to the movement's growth, but maybe
> >     I'm mistaken in thinking that we all want that growth.
> >     I am grateful to those who are interested in working towards an
> >     inclusive and non-toxic future for the free software movement. Maybe
> >     I'll get to work with you all someday on one of the projects that is
> >     interested in growing the free software movement.
> >     Best,
> >     Deb
> >
> >     On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 5:03 PM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> >
> >       * Deb Nicholson <[1]deb@eximiousproductions.com> [2021-03-26 16:52]:
> >       >    An interesting thing about men who harass women is that they
> >       usually
> >       >    don't do it to men. Men who let the community know that they
> >       "don't
> >       >    believe in harassment" are the last people to find out it's
> >       happening,
> >       >    because no one feels safe telling them.
> >       Generalization without end.
> >       Why are you sending accusations to this mailing list? How is this
> >       mailing list to defend your rights? Or is your only purpose to
> >       divide
> >       and bring more hate here?
> >
> > References
> >
> >     1. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
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--
Paul Sutton, Cert Cont Sci (Open)
https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/
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LibrePlanet 2021 - March 20th & 21st - https://libreplanet.org/2021/

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