Re: Support RMS

[Aaron Wolf]

Thomas, you are using the fact that *some* accusations have not held up
to scrutiny in order to conclude that all accusations have been
scrutinized and not held up.

I wonder if you would be more gracious if the accusers did more to
emphasize both the unfair aspects of some accusations and emphasized the
positive aspects of RMS. But I'm not optimistic. You don't seem at all
interested in considering whether there are really valid concerns here.

FWIW, I acknowledge how hard it is, especially at a distance, to make
sense of claims that RMS is sexist (and worse) when he has for years
gone out of his way to express support for feminist political causes in
terms of highlighting news articles or talking about principles.

Accepting for this comment that his behavior really has been what Deb
and others describe in their experiences (I have done the scrutiny and
all their concerns have held up as far as I could scrutinize)… I don't
think RMS is a hypocrite as much as he is oblivious. I mean, I suspect
maybe in some fundamental way, he doesn't quite *get* the issues with
his own behavior.

Perhaps in his mind, none of the ways he flirted with women or made
jokes etc., maybe none of that fit into the concepts that he recognized
as sexist, and his own honest awareness of sexism and its problems in
society and policy just seemed distinct. Put simply: he doesn't
recognize his problems because he doesn't do the *type* of sexist
behavior/talking that he recognizes as bad and criticizes in others (if
he did *that*, then it would be hypocritical).

I happen also to basically agree with the sentiment that RMS is widely
misunderstood, and the style of accusation we commonly see is a
non-understanding one. But that's not enough to disregard the ways his
behavior has caused harm to the movement — and I'm not talking about the
unfair out-of-context gotcha stuff, I'm talking about the pattern of
awkward behavior the is both more subtle and persistent, the stuff that
has discouraged many people over the years, people who dealt with him
day-to-day.

Thomas, at least in principle, if you had the opportunity to have a
private discussion with a man who worked closely with RMS for years and
who could explain his history of issues while acknowledging RMS's genius
and significance, would you be open to learning from that? Or would you
just reject the opportunity because you are already sure you know all
you need to know?

Although I would like to believe that I'd always be open-minded as a
personal habit, it happens that what got me to recognize the issues more
fully is precisely that I have had the opportunity to know and talk to
people close to RMS. My *inclination* otherwise is to be skeptical of
the critics because I very much recognize RMS's good intentions and
fundamentally strong ethical foundations in his worldview. I still see
those things today, even though I don't deny the problem behaviors.

On 2021-03-26 5:16 p.m., Thomas Lord wrote:
> 
> This has gotten beyond absurd.  For years, this list has not been used
> discuss developments, share projects, or even coordionate transportation
> and lodging.  It has been dominated by a few people making the same
> accusations again and again, and having others push back.   The
> accusations have never held up to scrutiny, even though we can assume
> some people make them with full sincerity.
> 
> Enough already.
> 
> -t
> 
> 
> 
> On 2021-03-26 16:03, Deb Nicholson wrote:
>> Well, it's disappointing but not surprising that a call for improving
>>    the way people are treated within the free software movement is being
>>    seen by some on this list as "hateful" or somehow in "opposition to
>>    free software." I honestly don't see how creating a haven for sexist
>>    behavior and disrespect can lead to the movement's growth, but maybe
>>    I'm mistaken in thinking that we all want that growth.
>>    I am grateful to those who are interested in working towards an
>>    inclusive and non-toxic future for the free software movement. Maybe
>>    I'll get to work with you all someday on one of the projects that is
>>    interested in growing the free software movement.
>>    Best,
>>    Deb
>>
>>    On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 5:03 PM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>>
>>      * Deb Nicholson <[1]deb@eximiousproductions.com> [2021-03-26 16:52]:
>>      >    An interesting thing about men who harass women is that they
>>      usually
>>      >    don't do it to men. Men who let the community know that they
>>      "don't
>>      >    believe in harassment" are the last people to find out it's
>>      happening,
>>      >    because no one feels safe telling them.
>>      Generalization without end.
>>      Why are you sending accusations to this mailing list? How is this
>>      mailing list to defend your rights? Or is your only purpose to
>>      divide
>>      and bring more hate here?
>>
>> References
>>
>>    1. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
>>
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