Re: Support RMS

[Deb Nicholson]

   On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:04 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]hayati@riseup.net>
   wrote:

     On 26/03/2021 18:19, Deb Nicholson wrote:
     >     An interesting thing about men who harass women is that they
     usually
     >     don't do it to men. Men who let the community know that they
     "don't
     >     believe in harassment" are the last people to find out it's
     happening,
     >     because no one feels safe telling them.
     I believe in harassment and I do stand against any person who harass
     people, no matter they're women or men. But someone's feelings being
     hurt is not harassment.
     For example, and only example, asking someone out or calling someone
     by
     wrong pronouns may hurt person's feelings but that's no harassment.
     Or,
     telling a person who is a woman that she's not as useful as some
     other
     person who is a man is not sexism.
     Again, I'm not accusing you of lying, I just don't know the whole
     story
     so I can't make decision.
     Since 2019, I've seen stories and articles that accuse RMS of
     harassment
     and assault which when I read carefully, I see only
     misunderstandings.
     What is happening now, specially that so-called open letter is based
     on
     misunderstandings and some lies, not truth. I oppose that.
     Again, sorry for your experience.
     >     Hundreds of people have been driven away for free software for
     many,
     >     many years. Women have stories of his behavior going back to
     MIT. A few
     >     of those women are still in tech and could've been
     contributing to free
     >     software for the last 30 years. We lose women and people who
     won't
     >     stand for the harassment of women all the time.
     This may be a political issue. I stand with women who are harassed,
     but
     I don't believe all women. I believe proof, not words. I don't
     accuse
     anybody of lying, I only can't stand somewhere when I'm not
     presented
     with any proof.
     >     I'm sorry that you are unwilling to believe the women who have
     worked
     >     closely with RMS in the FSF office or on the GNU project. Or
     the women
     >     he has interacted with at tech conferences or sci-fi
     conferences. Or
     >     the women he has mistreated at MIT.
     >     I hope that you will consider that all of us would rather be
     doing
     >     something else with our time and the only reason to speak up
     is because
     >     we care about the future of free software.
     >     Best,
     >     Deb
     I'm willing to believe any proof, so far, there haven't been any
     proof.
     Sorry you see me like this, I just can't decide where to stand
     without
     being presented by any proof. I understand that may hurt people, but
     I'm
     not willing to hurt others because I heard stories.

   Well, unless women start recording every social interaction they have
   all the time, then I think you aren't ever going to get the "proof" you
   are waiting for. I'm not a huge fan of normalizing constant
   surveillance in every social situation, so I think we are going to
   continue to disagree on what constitutes "enough proof" of harassment
   in person. I don't believe that over 100 women would make up a story
   about being harassed by the same person, especially when it matches
   what I've personally witnessed and especially when it is a pretty
   thankless claim to make.
   I can tell you there is plenty of proof of gendered harassment on the
   GNU mailing list, but RMS has chosen to keep that list private.
   Sincerely,
   Deb

     >
     >       On March 26, 2021 1:18:13 PM UTC, Deb Nicholson
     >       <[2][2]deb@eximiousproductions.com> wrote:
     >       >Hi,
     >       >I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer
     who has
     >       left most
     >       >of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the
     >       extremely
     >       >toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I
     stayed on
     >       the
     >       >LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate
     seeing
     >       the
     >       >occasional campaign messages and actions to take in support
     of free
     >       >software.
     >       >
     >       >RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm
     one of
     >       the people
     >       >who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong stance
     against
     >       sexism
     >       >in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class citizens,
     and to
     >       re-consider
     >       >his utterly clueless and disrespectful treatment of
     transgender
     >       people in
     >       >our communities.
     >       >
     >       >I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to
     choose
     >       free
     >       >software for everything. There is no way for free software
     to win
     >       if
     >       >hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after
     they get
     >       sick of
     >       >the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our
     communities. People
     >       take
     >       >their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over and over
     again that
     >       he is
     >       >not interested in removing intolerance. If we want a
     movement that
     >       grows,
     >       >instead of a quirky and toxic private club, then RMS
     shouldn't
     >       lead.
     >       >
     >       >Sincerely,
     >       >Deb Nicholson
     >       >
     >       >On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati
     >       <[3][3]hayati@riseup.net> wrote:
     >       >
     >       >> Hello Danny.
     >       >>
     >       >> I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see
     anything
     >       wrong
     >       >> here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it.
     I've seen
     >       gay
     >       >> people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I
     said, after
     >       all,
     >       >> that's just jokes and humor.
     >       >>
     >       >> About being offended, again that's not a problem with
     RMS. Maybe
     >       he
     >       >> hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want
     a nice
     >       person
     >       >> to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up
     person.
     >       Every
     >       >> person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset
     many
     >       people in my
     >       >> life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.
     >       >>
     >       >> If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your
     opinion and
     >       >> respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader,
     that's
     >       again
     >       >> respectable and may even be a fair point if presented
     well.
     >       >>
     >       >> However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What
     you've
     >       signed
     >       >> is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to
     >       defending
     >       >> truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
     >       >>
     >       >> I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because
     >       defending
     >       >> truth is important.
     >       >>
     >       >> Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but
     that's
     >       just your
     >       >> personal conflict/disappointment.
     >       >>
     >       >> On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
     >       >> > I am having a difficult time right now. This person
     Georgia
     >       shares
     >       >> > several years of experience working at FSF and directly
     with
     >       RMS. Ali,
     >       >> > their testimony makes me think that maybe the free
     software
     >       movement
     >       >> > needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied
     from
     >       >> >
     [4][4]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
     >       >> >
     >
     <[5][5]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
     >       >> > “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward
     for a
     >       while. I
     >       >> > recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with
     ED John
     >       Sullivan
     >       >> > about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s
     needed to
     >       be
     >       >> > removed from [6][6]gnu.org <[7][7]http://gnu.org>. rms
     didn't get why
     >       it was
     >       >> harmful.
     >       >> >
     >       >> > Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a
     technical
     >       manual? He
     >       >> > threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many
     people (who
     >       respected
     >       >> > him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that
     wasn't
     >       cool.
     >       >> >
     >       >> > The thing that randos who have never had to actually
     work with
     >       rms don't
     >       >> > understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him
     tried
     >       to help
     >       >> > him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at
     >       Libreplanet as if
     >       >> > it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs
     virgins'
     >       >> >
     >       >> > Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been
     spent
     >       advocating
     >       >> > for free to software and building the inclusive,
     impractical
     >       community
     >       >> > so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego,
     over and
     >       over.
     >       >> >
     >       >> > This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free
     software
     >       community
     >       >> > is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to
     work with
     >       a bunch
     >       >> > of people I like & respect & feel inspired by,
     organizing
     >       Libreplanet
     >       >> > was my job & introduced me to amazing people from
     across the
     >       world
     >       >> >
     >       >> > free software has the ability to do so much good, but
     there's
     >       an ugly
     >       >> > cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he
     faced
     >       consequences
     >       >> > for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the
     decades of
     >       shitty
     >       >> > behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his
     return
     >       >> >
     >       >> > It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because
     we
     >       don't focus
     >       >> > on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by
     assholes
     >       sealioning
     >       >> > for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER
     enough)
     >       it's
     >       >> > possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms now.
     DON'T LET
     >       THEM
     >       >> >
     >       >> > My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but
     I made
     >       a pull
     >       >> > request in order to sign on to this letter.
     >       >> > [8][8]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
     >       <[9][9]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
     >       >> >
     >       >> > One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this.
     They
     >       didn't ask
     >       >> > for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms'
     apparently
     >       impromptu
     >       >> > announcement, they labor for the organization and for
     the
     >       community
     >       >> > every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive
     >       director.”
     >       >> >
     >       >> > The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500
     >       individuals,
     >       >> > including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
     >       >> >
     >       >> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati
     >       <[10][10]hayati@riseup.net
     >       >> > <mailto:[11][11]hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
     >       >> >
     >       >> >     Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board
     of
     >       directors.
     >       >> Now,
     >       >> >     some organizations and people are attacking FSF and
     RMS and
     >       are
     >       >> asking
     >       >> >     them to resign.
     >       >> >
     >       >> >     Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF
     to resist
     >       this
     >       >> >     pressure and continue work for the good of the
     software
     >       libre
     >       >> movement.
     >       >> >
     >       >> >     Sending message to [12][12]info@fsf.org
     >       <mailto:[13][13]info@fsf.org> is a way of
     >       >> >     showing your support. They
     >       >> >     are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not
     step down
     >       from our
     >       >> >     principals, which are fighting for justice and
     truth.
     >       >> >
     >       >> >     On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
     >       >> >      > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of
     support
     >       for RMS.
     >       >> >      >
     >       >> >      > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
     >       >> >     <[14][14]hayati@riseup.net
     <mailto:[15][15]hayati@riseup.net>
     >       >> >      > <mailto:[16][16]hayati@riseup.net
     >       <mailto:[17][17]hayati@riseup.net>>> wrote:
     >       >> >      >
     >       >> >      >     People,
     >       >> >      >
     >       >> >      >     FSF board has received lots of messages
     today and
     >       there's no
     >       >> >     need to
     >       >> >      >     add
     >       >> >      >     to the pile. Please send your support for
     RMS to
     >       [18][18]info@fsf.org
     >       >> >     <mailto:[19][19]info@fsf.org>
     >       >> >      >     <mailto:[20][20]info@fsf.org
     <mailto:[21][21]info@fsf.org>>
     >       and ask
     >       >> >      >     them to resist pressures and stay with us.
     >       >> >      >
     >       >> >      >     Software libre is a matter of justice. If we
     can
     >       learn one
     >       >> >     thing from
     >       >> >      >     the whole movement is to keep our principals
     and
     >       fight for
     >       >> >     justice. FSF
     >       >> >      >     made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not
     to
     >       defend RMS
     >       >> >     against
     >       >> >      >     false
     >       >> >      >     accusations. Today, we can make that right
     by
     >       supporting a
     >       >> >     wonderful
     >       >> >      >     honorable man.
     >       >> >      >
     >       >> >      >     Show your support by sending messages to
     >       [22][22]info@fsf.org
     >       >> >     <mailto:[23][23]info@fsf.org>
     >       >> >      >     <mailto:[24][24]info@fsf.org
     <mailto:[25][25]info@fsf.org>>.
     >       Do it now, later
     >       >> >      >     may be late.
     >       >> >      >
     >       >> >      >     Best.
     >       >> >      >     --
     >       >> >      >     Ali Reza Hayati
     ([26][26]https://alirezahayati.com
     >       >> >     <[27][27]https://alirezahayati.com>
     >       <[28][28]https://alirezahayati.com
     >       >> >     <[29][29]https://alirezahayati.com>>)
     >       >> >      >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     >       >> >      >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925
     75A3
     >       C354
     >       >> >      >
     >       >> >      >
     _______________________________________________
     >       >> >      >     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     >       >> >      > [30][30]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >       >> >
     <mailto:[31][31]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
     >       >> >      >
     <mailto:[32][32]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >       >> >
     <mailto:[33][33]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
     >       >> >      >
     >       >> >
     >
     [34][34]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
     iscu
     >       ss
     >       >> >
     >
     <[35][35]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-
     disc
     >       uss>
     >       >> >      >
     >       >> >       <
     >       >>
     >
     [36][36]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
     iscu
     >       ss <
     >       >>
     >
     [37][37]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
     iscu
     >       ss>>
     >       >> >      >
     >       >> >
     >       >> >     --
     >       >> >     Ali Reza Hayati ([38][38]https://alirezahayati.com
     <
     >       >> [39][39]https://alirezahayati.com>)
     >       >> >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     >       >> >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3
     C354
     >       >> >
     >       >>
     >       >> --
     >       >> Ali Reza Hayati ([40][40]https://alirezahayati.com)
     >       >> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     >       >> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
     >       >>
     >       >> _______________________________________________
     >       >> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     >       >> [41][41]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >       >>
     >
     [42][42]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
     iscu
     >       ss
     >       --
     >       Ali Reza Hayati ([43][43]https://alirezahayati.com)
     >       Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     >       PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3
     >
     > References
     >
     >     1. mailto:[44]hayati@riseup.net
     >     2. mailto:[45]deb@eximiousproductions.com
     >     3. mailto:[46]hayati@riseup.net
     >     4.
     [47]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
     >     5.
     [48]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
     >     6. [49]http://gnu.org/
     >     7. [50]http://gnu.org/
     >     8. [51]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
     >     9. [52]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
     >    10. mailto:[53]hayati@riseup.net
     >    11. mailto:[54]hayati@riseup.net
     >    12. mailto:[55]info@fsf.org
     >    13. mailto:[56]info@fsf.org
     >    14. mailto:[57]hayati@riseup.net
     >    15. mailto:[58]hayati@riseup.net
     >    16. mailto:[59]hayati@riseup.net
     >    17. mailto:[60]hayati@riseup.net
     >    18. mailto:[61]info@fsf.org
     >    19. mailto:[62]info@fsf.org
     >    20. mailto:[63]info@fsf.org
     >    21. mailto:[64]info@fsf.org
     >    22. mailto:[65]info@fsf.org
     >    23. mailto:[66]info@fsf.org
     >    24. mailto:[67]info@fsf.org
     >    25. mailto:[68]info@fsf.org
     >    26. [69]https://alirezahayati.com/
     >    27. [70]https://alirezahayati.com/
     >    28. [71]https://alirezahayati.com/
     >    29. [72]https://alirezahayati.com/
     >    30. mailto:[73]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >    31. mailto:[74]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >    32. mailto:[75]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >    33. mailto:[76]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >    34.
     [77]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss
     >    35.
     [78]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss
     >    36.
     [79]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss
     >    37.
     [80]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss
     >    38. [81]https://alirezahayati.com/
     >    39. [82]https://alirezahayati.com/
     >    40. [83]https://alirezahayati.com/
     >    41. mailto:[84]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >    42.
     [85]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss
     >    43. [86]https://alirezahayati.com/
     >
     >
     > _______________________________________________
     > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     > [87]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >
     [88]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss
     >
     --
     Ali Reza Hayati ([89]https://alirezahayati.com)
     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354

References

   1. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   2. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
   3. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   4. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
   5. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
   6. http://gnu.org/
   7. http://gnu.org/
   8. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
   9. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
  10. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  11. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  12. mailto:info@fsf.org
  13. mailto:info@fsf.org
  14. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  15. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  16. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  17. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  18. mailto:info@fsf.org
  19. mailto:info@fsf.org
  20. mailto:info@fsf.org
  21. mailto:info@fsf.org
  22. mailto:info@fsf.org
  23. mailto:info@fsf.org
  24. mailto:info@fsf.org
  25. mailto:info@fsf.org
  26. https://alirezahayati.com/
  27. https://alirezahayati.com/
  28. https://alirezahayati.com/
  29. https://alirezahayati.com/
  30. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  31. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  32. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  33. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  34. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
  35. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
  36. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
  37. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
  38. https://alirezahayati.com/
  39. https://alirezahayati.com/
  40. https://alirezahayati.com/
  41. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  42. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
  43. https://alirezahayati.com/
  44. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  45. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
  46. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  47. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
  48. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
  49. http://gnu.org/
  50. http://gnu.org/
  51. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
  52. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
  53. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  54. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  55. mailto:info@fsf.org
  56. mailto:info@fsf.org
  57. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  58. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  59. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  60. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  61. mailto:info@fsf.org
  62. mailto:info@fsf.org
  63. mailto:info@fsf.org
  64. mailto:info@fsf.org
  65. mailto:info@fsf.org
  66. mailto:info@fsf.org
  67. mailto:info@fsf.org
  68. mailto:info@fsf.org
  69. https://alirezahayati.com/
  70. https://alirezahayati.com/
  71. https://alirezahayati.com/
  72. https://alirezahayati.com/
  73. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  74. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  75. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  76. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  77. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  78. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  79. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  80. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  81. https://alirezahayati.com/
  82. https://alirezahayati.com/
  83. https://alirezahayati.com/
  84. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  85. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  86. https://alirezahayati.com/
  87. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  88. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  89. https://alirezahayati.com/