Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he
doesn't care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be
bullied, participates in free software.
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:41 PM Danny Spitzberg
<[1]stationaery@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 12:25 PM gregor
<[2]podrzaj.gregor@gmail.com>
wrote:
hi Deb, all.
hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes:
i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the
same
seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of
decades of a
lag.
reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another
planet.
if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would
happen, i
would bet my arm that it wouldn't.
your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of
freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of.
the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations
Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary?
of how to
conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no
need
for
critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the
ancients
called wisdom)
those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign
country.
now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that
same
force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up
with.
(and
also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it
as
such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile)
let me walk trough your letter Deb
On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote:
Hi,
As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours
running
FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a
half
dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about
RMS
treating them differently,
differently? as oppose to what? samely?
hitting on them at a conference,
oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless
she
approves of it?) how does that work?
loudly
interrupting a young person's talk
only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok,
interupting
someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched
dr.
RMS,
and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at
me,
i
would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my
position for
which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am
sure
he
would go revisiting his.
or involving them in a mortifying
public joke about virginity.
mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a
killing
joke, once you hear it you die
In particular, I have had several young
women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet
because
RMS might yell at me."
hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a
smile
and a
cheer fills the room.
Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or
girlfriend to
these events because the last time they did RMS or other free
software
representatives were awful to them.
were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they
were
awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male
spouses
everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends
feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head
around
what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems
like
those
couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of
the
world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a
mans
club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a
huge
point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral
pronoun
which is not sexist at all
Having a leader who inspires others
to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a
net
positive for the free software movement.
contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to
be
the
way you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the
whole
world. it lacks the basic logic, you seem to not notice you
constantly
argue against your own principle.
Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of
the
people who've had these interactions with RMS or his
representatives
choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their
volunteer
time?
truth shall prevail. meanwhile bombs are still killing the
innocent ...
ever, ever, ever much?
I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF
mostly
still
support him. What's sad is that the free software movement
should
be
much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only
accepting
people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement.
in all your posts you have managed to belittle yourself in my
eyes
completely. mind you, couldn't it be argued that dr. RMS is
harassed
and bullied? one could even naively ask by whom? (wink wink)
We should
be able to work on free software without that gate.
i can not see the connection between "promote computer user
freedom"
e.g. free software project and a gate. what gate does dr. RMS
present
to you that inhibits your work for the computer user freedom?
You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I
understand
that
it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that
letter
have
spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free
software
*with RMS.* He hasn't listened.
could it be he listened but didn't react the way you wanted?
It's completely false to draw a
parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete
strangers at
an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free
software
supporters.
would need to see some examples finally of this rudeness you
keep
referring to. try finding ones that weren't provoked so as not
to
waste
more time with a straw man. (down below you used open hardware,
is the
perfect example where one could scream: not open, free/libre -
after so
many years in the movement you still spread propaganda mixing
free and
open)
RMS did come up with free software and many tools for achieving
it and
that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the
struggle
for freedom though.
the freedom you are fighting for here is known in my world as
"political correctness". see, its political. FSF is not a
political
platform, find another platform for (in my opinion highjacked,
using
grassroots and perverting it for some agenda unbeknown to me)
movement
of political correctness.
i stand strongly on my political views, but see, they are not
important
for FSF, i mean: for the part where they intersect they are the
same,
where they don't intersect i won't bother pushing my flat earth
theory
on FSF... was a parable, am actually still a globe-er :),
ohoho
and by
the way, planet is not a correct term, since etimologically it
means
plane not globe, so lets all start calling the planet globet)
And there are many aspects of even computer freedom
that the FSF does not work on; some of the EFF's work against
persistent surveillance, campaigns to popularize Open Hardware,
here you go, this is the point i see myself yelling also
pushing
for reform of EULAs and TOS agreements, resisting the use of
algorithms
that reinforce racism and sexism in job opportunities or the
criminal
justice system or pushing to be able to work on things like
drones or
amateur rockets without being labeled as criminals.
for some of those you should make your own foundation. some
could
find
a sweet spot in FSF projects. also with some i disagree -
technology is
not bad per se, it's the use of it that can be bad.
The struggle for
freedom has to be more than one person and more than one
organization.
exactly. why highjack dr. RMS and FSF, when you should make
your
own,
thus making it "more than one organization"??? and you again do
some
word twisting - struggle for freedom is not what the stated
mission of
FSF is ("mission to promote computer user freedom.").
If the FSF is unwilling to listen to people's concerns, then I
fear
that it will cease to grow and become irrelevant. I think that
would be
terrible because software freedom is extremely important and
that's why
I'm continuing to engage here.
hmm, seems to me that by equating people's concerns with your
own
concerns (or of a group of people) puts you in the position of
the
arbiter. you like to do that over and over again, i wonder if
knowingly?
i am sure FSF is willing to listen to all concerns. what they
do
with
them might be different form one concern to other one. and
again,
different from what you want.
Once i wrote a personal letter to dr. RMS, and to my big
surprise, i
got an answer. me, just a schmuck, i never expected for him to
bother
with some small talk with just some guy. he took the time. he
took the
time.
Best,
Deb
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 4:21 AM Alexandre Oliva
[1]<[1][3]lxoliva@fsfla.org>
wrote:
On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson
[2]<[2][4]deb@eximiousproductions.com>
wrote:
> It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to
disbelieve
former FSF
> employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at
conferences or MIT
> and many, many free software creators.
That's a real peril, and would have been wise to take into
account,
before deciding to form a coalition with known liars and
attackers,
and
before resorting to false allegations, exaggerations and
distortions
to
spark an explosive reaction that facts have or would have
failed to
spark.
These decisions have contaminated and shed doubt on the
legitimacy
of
claims advanced by those who joined the coalition, or who
opportunistically timed their action to coincide with those
of
the
corporate-funded coalition. That may be illogical, but it's
often a
valuable heuristics. Call it karma if you wish.
Now, if there were any true, first-hand accounts of actual
sexual
harassment, I'd be very interested in getting them straight
from the
source. Giving out pleasure cards, politely asking people on
dates,
keeping foliage or mattresses in work offices, reports of the
existence
of institutional sexism at universities, advising caution
against
leaps
to unsupported condemnation, tasteless jokes, getting angry
and
being
loud are not it IMHO. Hearsay about the same half dozen
rumors
over
a
period of 40+ years isn't either, unless your own
investigations
haven't
hit a dead end before something concrete popped up. I
encourage you
to
let the FSF board know if that's the case, and please keep me
on
copy.
> The vast majority of the people who signed the letter
asking
for
RMS
> to step down, care deeply about free software.
I encourage them (you) to behave as such, instead of
associating
with
historical opponents, and working so hard to divide us. It's
become
really hard to believe in that commitment, and in good
intentions
behind
the actions, given the present circumstances.
--
Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker
[3][3][5]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer
Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar
References
1. [4]mailto:[6]lxoliva@fsfla.org
2. [5]mailto:[7]deb@eximiousproductions.com
3. [6][8]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
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libreplanet-discuss mailing list
[7][9]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
[8][10]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di
scuss
i grew up in a socialist country (oh, did i mention that usa
bombed it,
yes) and what i am seeing now in the west reminds me of the
brainwash
propaganda i grew up in 40 odd years back. and yes, is totally
wrong
and always makes me a bit angry when westerners say a communist
country, it shows the lack of knowledge. all them (us) commies
were
socialist countries, please be politically correct when you
call
them.
also china today is not and never was communist, it is
socialist.
read
up, educate, and be correct.
also so many times i hear americans this americans that. so
politically
incorrect, when referring to citizens of usa and calling them
americans, you "insult" all central and south americans and
canadians.
please be politically correct.
etc.
if you caught my point, there is not always the need to be
politically
correct, if the exchange of information was correct and no
party
of
exchange was insulted, then the strict semantic can loosen up.
but if
you keep being insulted by this, that and my uncle, well then
you
might
be quite a bigot (for the many times you've insulted south
americans,
and a billion and a half socialist chinese people, etc)
Notice also that i began the letter with an emotionally charged
personal views/feelings, just as you did, again to show you the
mirror.
So, as i began with quite an emotional tone, let me finish with
an
apology. We, the people should stand united in our differences
and
should try understanding each other and even when we don't, we
shouldn't impose ways of behavior on others (of course, all
within roza
luxembourg maxim). is not really that hard, even if my reply
doesn't
show it much. So i hope you can accept my apologies for being
blunt and
a bit rude (when i grew up, back then, that kind of exchange
wasn't
necessarily being seen as rude at all)
I hope, truly sincerely hope that one day, we (you and me and
all) will
no longer fight where fight isn't due. and class struggle
becomes
one
class struggle, all class struggle. it feels even, that once
not
divided, victory is here.
i salute you all from once socialist country
g
References
1. mailto:[1][11]lxoliva@fsfla.org
2. mailto:[2][12]deb@eximiousproductions.com
3. [13]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
4. mailto:[14]lxoliva@fsfla.org
5. mailto:[15]deb@eximiousproductions.com
6. [16]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
7. mailto:[17]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
8.
[18]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
ss
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libreplanet-discuss mailing list
[19]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
[20]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
ss
References
1. mailto:stationaery@gmail.com
2. mailto:podrzaj.gregor@gmail.com
3. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
4. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
5. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
6. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
7. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
8. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
9. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
10.
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
11. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
12. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
13. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
14. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
15. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
16. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
17. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
18.
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
19. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
20.
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
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libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
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