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Re: Support RMS
From: |
Lusin |
Subject: |
Re: Support RMS |
Date: |
Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:44:53 +0000 |
Thanks for writing this Aaron, it’s nicely balanced. I am merely an
associate member who knows not a soul in FSF outside of subscribing to
this list, but I very much believe in the four freedoms and am
eternally grateful for RMS.
I think Deb shows courage. In addition, she is respectful and precise,
which is all one can hope for in an interlocutor, especially in a
debate of this magnitude. It’s embarrassing that many of her opponents
are neither. When I read arguments like Ali’s calling women who don’t
want to be hit on to ask security for help it’s all I can do not to
cancel my membership. What passes for logic is embarrassing among those
of us who profess to be experts in it.
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 13:39, Aaron Wolf <[1]wolftune@riseup.net>
wrote:
Thomas, I imagine Deb posting here to share her thoughts on the ways
she
sees RMS as a problem for the movement, but she's not saying that it
personally drives her away from the movement. She's been involved in
various orgs like Software Freedom Conservancy and is now at the
OSI. I
think her point is to help people simply understand the concerns
about
RMS that are not related to the unfair stuff around his political
views.
On a side note, I very much appreciated your description of your own
dealings with RMS, and I see some merit to your points. I don't see
myself as on one or the other "side" of this debate. I think we're
all
in this together, and I think if we can get past (or through) our
initial reactiveness to things we read or hear, we can end up
finding
common understandings to help us work together best.
Maybe the most productive outcome is some situation where the FSF
and
RMS do continue with only some reforms and still with RMS'
leadership
and antagonism dies down over time, and different aspects of the
movement collaborate constructively. Maybe it's not absolutely
hopeless
to end up with RMS continuing to provide his positive inputs without
turning people away. Certainly that's my wish, but I don't know that
to
be realistic.
On 2021-04-15 10:23 a.m., Thomas Lord wrote:
>
> You seem to be complaining that you can not work on
> free software without closely associating with the FSF.
>
> That seems nonsensical. What's stopping you?
>
> -t
>
>
> On 2021-04-15 09:13, Deb Nicholson wrote:
>> Hi,
>> As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many
hours
>> running
>> FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a
half
>> dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about
RMS
>> treating them differently, hitting on them at a conference,
loudly
>> interrupting a young person's talk or involving them in a
mortifying
>> public joke about virginity. In particular, I have had several
young
>> women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet
because
>> RMS might yell at me."
>> Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or
girlfriend to
>> these events because the last time they did RMS or other free
software
>> representatives were awful to them. Having a leader who
inspires
>> others
>> to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a
net
>> positive for the free software movement.
>> Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of
the
>> people who've had these interactions with RMS or his
representatives
>> choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their
volunteer
>> time?
>> I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF
mostly still
>> support him. What's sad is that the free software movement
should be
>> much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only
accepting
>> people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement.
We should
>> be able to work on free software without that gate.
>> You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I
understand that
>> it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that
letter have
>> spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free
software
>> *with RMS.* He hasn't listened. It's completely false to draw
a
>> parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete
>> strangers at
>> an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free
>> software
>> supporters.
>> RMS did come up with free software and many tools for
achieving it and
>> that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the
struggle
>> for freedom though. And there are many aspects of even
computer
>> freedom
>> that the FSF does not work on; some of the EFF's work against
>> persistent surveillance, campaigns to popularize Open
Hardware,
>> pushing
>> for reform of EULAs and TOS agreements, resisting the use of
>> algorithms
>> that reinforce racism and sexism in job opportunities or the
criminal
>> justice system or pushing to be able to work on things like
drones or
>> amateur rockets without being labeled as criminals. The
struggle for
>> freedom has to be more than one person and more than one
organization.
>> If the FSF is unwilling to listen to people's concerns, then I
fear
>> that it will cease to grow and become irrelevant. I think that
>> would be
>> terrible because software freedom is extremely important and
that's
>> why
>> I'm continuing to engage here.
>> Best,
>> Deb
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 4:21 AM Alexandre Oliva
<[1]lxoliva@fsfla.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson
<[2]deb@eximiousproductions.com>
>> wrote:
>> > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to
disbelieve
>> former FSF
>> > employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at
>> conferences or MIT
>> > and many, many free software creators.
>> That's a real peril, and would have been wise to take into
account,
>> before deciding to form a coalition with known liars and
attackers,
>> and
>> before resorting to false allegations, exaggerations and
distortions
>> to
>> spark an explosive reaction that facts have or would have
failed to
>> spark.
>> These decisions have contaminated and shed doubt on the
legitimacy
>> of
>> claims advanced by those who joined the coalition, or who
>> opportunistically timed their action to coincide with those
of the
>> corporate-funded coalition. That may be illogical, but it's
often a
>> valuable heuristics. Call it karma if you wish.
>> Now, if there were any true, first-hand accounts of actual
sexual
>> harassment, I'd be very interested in getting them straight
from the
>> source. Giving out pleasure cards, politely asking people
on dates,
>> keeping foliage or mattresses in work offices, reports of
the
>> existence
>> of institutional sexism at universities, advising caution
against
>> leaps
>> to unsupported condemnation, tasteless jokes, getting angry
and
>> being
>> loud are not it IMHO. Hearsay about the same half dozen
rumors over
>> a
>> period of 40+ years isn't either, unless your own
investigations
>> haven't
>> hit a dead end before something concrete popped up. I
encourage you
>> to
>> let the FSF board know if that's the case, and please keep
me on
>> copy.
>> > The vast majority of the people who signed the letter
asking for
>> RMS
>> > to step down, care deeply about free software.
>> I encourage them (you) to behave as such, instead of
associating
>> with
>> historical opponents, and working so hard to divide us.
It's become
>> really hard to believe in that commitment, and in good
intentions
>> behind
>> the actions, given the present circumstances.
>> --
>> Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker
[3]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>> Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer
>> Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
>> 2. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
>> 3. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>>
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>>
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>
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References
1. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
- Re: Support RMS, (continued)
- Re: Support RMS, Jean Louis, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS, Danny Spitzberg, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS, Jean Louis, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS, Danny Spitzberg, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS, Deb Nicholson, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS, Jean Louis, 2021/04/16
- Message not available
- Re: Support RMS, Jean Louis, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS, Jean Louis, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS, Danny Spitzberg, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS, Danny Spitzberg, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS,
Lusin <=
- Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all, gregor, 2021/04/15
- Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all, Danny Spitzberg, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all, Deb Nicholson, 2021/04/15
- Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all, gregor, 2021/04/15
- Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all, Thomas Lord, 2021/04/15
- Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all, Steve M Bibayoff, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all, Matt Ivie, 2021/04/17
- Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all, quiliro, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all, Danny Spitzberg, 2021/04/16
- Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all, quiliro, 2021/04/16